Declined [JB] Bring back the fire command (1 Viewer)

[Xergon]

See above, I think the fire command should be brought back as to disincentivize terrible (or annoying) people going warden, as they could be fired. To prevent abuse, it would require 2/3rd's of the server to do /fire or !fire

 

[TRGGB2]

We disallow the fire command for a reason you know. If we bring it back then that means it will just end up being abused.
Notable examples would be:

-People using the fire command to troll (Groups of trolls count btw. Doesn't matter if they are friends or not. )
-If the majority of the server doesn't like that warden just because he/she is doing something "cringe" then chances are they will be fired.

Plus I would also mention if we add this then this would also mean it will contradict the rule on you have to be warden. It will just be another way to prevent that certain someone being warden.

The whole fire command is just to either discouraging new wardens or to shit on wardens they don't like. Plus if you think about saying moderating who is using the fire command correctly that will be extra work for admins and a difficult task at that.

 

[Dr. Meatloaf]

Too many people these days use all three of their force wardens to do 9 square just to annoy reds. They also go pyro so they can use air blast to essentially be immune to rebelling. I know this would be a big change but given how annoying and prevalent these troll wardens have become I think it should be considered. (Or maybe we consider another solution like lowering the number of times somebody can force warden, or removing blue airblast.)

 

[TRGGB2]

Too many people these days use all three of their force wardens to do 9 square just to annoy reds. They also go pyro so they can use air blast to essentially be immune to rebelling. I know this would be a big change but given how annoying and prevalent these troll wardens have become I think it should be considered. (Or maybe we consider another solution like lowering the number of times somebody can force warden, or removing blue airblast.)

Again, this falls back to my point of saying "If the majority of the server doesn't like that warden just because he/she is doing something "cringe" then chances are they will be fired." If you are bringing back the fire command just because some guy is doing x minigame for 3 whole rounds just to annoy people then my point is proven. They have 3 forces which if they run out they can't force unless they are picked randomly. You can always report them if they are using the force exploit. You just view the fire command as a way to prevent the certain someone playing the same minigame 3 times. I will ask anyone who agree to this suggestion.

What do you gain if this was added and is it really worth risking it being easily abused only to have a suggestion to remove it?

Its the same thing with adding the votekick or the votemute/gag back again. You can go ask any of the jb team and they will say the exact same thing i'm talking about.

 

[Xergon]

I feel as though it is worth the risk. I mean, I feel as though this could fall into the same argument as "blues don't need to have crits, because they can just mass freekill easily" Both can be easily abused, but they both serve a point. The fire command could be used to get rid of wardens blantly breaking rules. Sure it runs the risk of being abused, but if there's no admins currently avaliable, then it would be useful. Isn't the whole point of it needing a supermajority to work counteract the chances of it being abused? You'd need well over half the server to agree to fire someone.

 

[Dr. Meatloaf]

If you are bringing back the fire command just because some guy is doing x minigame for 3 whole rounds just to annoy people then my point is proven.

I'll be honest it's hard to take your argument seriously because everybody reading this likely understands that you're one of the people who likes to play this way. Forcing 3 times to troll reds just because you can isn't fun. Reds are not "shitting on the warden," you deserve it. Looking at the facts though, I will concede that part of your argument does have some merit.

I liked that you pointed out that people can troll the !fire command. I think the command is likely to be abused if there are a small number of players on (<10) they might fire the warden just to troll them. Maybe there's a way to put a floor in so the command is only active if (<10) reds are online. However if on a full server 20 people vote to fire you then it's your fault.

I also liked how you pointed out that new people who don't know how to play warden will be fired to avoid playing warden. This point is actually something I hadn't thought about and I think everybody else should think about it too before voting. (I actually posted my first fourm response before seeing yours.)

I didn't like the fact that you think people firing "cringe wardens" is abuse. It isn't. Notice how the suggestion talked about discouraging "terrible and annoying wardens." It's not even intended for rule breakers, that's what !call is for. The way I see it, if a warden such as yourself decides to intentionally troll and annoy reds they shouldn't be warden. If 2/3rds of the server doesn't like how you are being warden enough to fire you then it's you're fault, enough said.

Anyway. I do think you bring up some good points. Maybe this suggestion isn't the best idea in the long run. I'd still be willing to give it a try, but I understand people who are hesitant.

If this one doesn't pass I'll probably suggest that we lower the times somebody can force warden down to 1. That suggestion was popular on the Jailbreak discord and seems to fix the same problem without having any potential for negative consequences.

 

[Valen]

I dunno why y'all are typing little essays, but here's my useless take: What TRG says is the prime reason why it should be used. Shitty wardens are shitty wardens, and having !fire enabled would encourage.. y'know.. good wardens. For said shitty wardens to be better. Which would be better for everyone on the server honestly. I could see maybe limiting the amount of uses of firing a warden, the same way you limit forces. Might dissuade trolling, as it was put? Yeah, it'd work with rulebreakers too. But those usually get dealt with pretty quickly anyways. Whatever.

 

[Bambi]

The main gripe behind this concept is that it could be abused in some manner, that's been explained plenty enough already.

That being said though I'd be alright with seeing this happen. In my opinion if you set it to something like 2/3 of a server vote required to fire it would work out just fine, just enough to keep troll votes at bay. As far as firing troll wardens go well, if 2/3s of an entire server are sick of doing 3 minigames in a row, maybe that's called for (yes that's coming from me). Might be wrong about this assumption I dunno, I just think current playerbase could be trusted enough for this. Anyways goodluck with the suggestion

 

[TRGGB2]

Bolded and colored several main points I want to mention.
I would like to credit this thread: https://www.panda-community.com/threads/vote-kick-debate.16146/
Although not the !fire suggestion it still brings some valid points to this suggestion

Spoiler: Zels and Vals CA

I feel as though it is worth the risk. I mean, I feel as though this could fall into the same argument as "blues don't need to have crits, because they can just mass freekill easily" Both can be easily abused, but they both serve a point. The fire command could be used to get rid of wardens blantly breaking rules. Sure it runs the risk of being abused, but if there's no admins currently avaliable, then it would be useful. Isn't the whole point of it needing a supermajority to work counteract the chances of it being abused? You'd need well over half the server to agree to fire someone.

I dunno why y'all are typing little essays, but here's my useless take: What TRG says is the prime reason why it should be used. Shitty wardens are shitty wardens, and having !fire enabled would encourage.. y'know.. good wardens. For said shitty wardens to be better. Which would be better for everyone on the server honestly. I could see maybe limiting the amount of uses of firing a warden, the same way you limit forces. Might dissuade trolling, as it was put? Yeah, it'd work with rulebreakers too. But those usually get dealt with pretty quickly anyways. Whatever.

Both of these arguments comes from the case of dealing with rulebreakers. This is a common argument with the votekick/voteban/etc. However, we have a report section where you can deal with rulebreakers. Plus we have 6 jb admins and they are all active. Please use !call. If that fails then gather evidence to make a report. You are helping the server in this case.

Val, your argument was the worst by far. You aren't trying to be understanding or helpful you want newer wardens out of the equation. Newer wardens need experience so why not give them a try instead of firing them from warden. The whole entire point of experience is to make progress and once they reached a certain point they can be confident wardens. You basically halt their progress by firing them and letting the experience take over. Please take a look what I and meatloaf said on Meatloafs CA. If everyone starts doing this then leads to massive toxicity. Remember that jb is mostly toxic and this is why I don't like the use of fire.

Spoiler: Meatloafs CA

also liked how you pointed out that new people who don't know how to play warden will be fired to avoid playing warden. This point is actually something I hadn't thought about and I think everybody else should think about it too before voting. (I actually posted my first fourm response before seeing yours.)

Correct and everyone should be aware of this. Numerous times I seen people being toxic over wardens simply because he/she isn't doing a great job or something else. I was also a victim of this when I was 13 and started playing jb. My first time being warden was overall shit. Instead of being understanding and taking a guardban I got 10 people screaming at me and taking a guardban. It is still present today and I highly encourage other jb regs to take it lightly on newer wardens and be understanding. Adding a fire command in my opinion would encourage this behavior.

If this one doesn't pass I'll probably suggest that we lower the times somebody can force warden down to 1. That suggestion was popular on the Jailbreak discord and seems to fix the same problem without having any potential for negative consequences.

Go ahead. I don't think we have a suggestion for that so you can feel free to make one.

Spoiler: Bambi CA

Might be wrong about this assumption I dunno, I just think current playerbase could be trusted enough for this. Anyways goodluck with the suggestion

Very vastly depends if the jb team can trust with people using the fire command although in my opinion I don't think people aren't ready for the fire command unless the jb team sees less toxicity from the players. Again I think everyone needs to understand trust. Can the jb team trust you and everyone with the fire command?

This is my last and final post for this suggestion.
Good day.

 

[Xergon]

I do feel like we can give it a soft test for a few weeks to see how it goes.

 

[Valen]

Spoiler: Zels and Vals CA

Both of these arguments comes from the case of dealing with rulebreakers. This is a common argument with the votekick/voteban/etc. However, we have a report section where you can deal with rulebreakers. Plus we have 6 jb admins and they are all active. Please use !call. If that fails then gather evidence to make a report. You are helping the server in this case.

Val, your argument was the worst by far. You aren't trying to be understanding or helpful you want newer wardens out of the equation. Newer wardens need experience so why not give them a try instead of firing them from warden. The whole entire point of experience is to make progress and once they reached a certain point they can be confident wardens. You basically halt their progress by firing them and letting the experience take over. Please take a look what I and meatloaf said on Meatloafs CA. If everyone starts doing this then leads to massive toxicity. Remember that jb is mostly toxic and this is why I don't like the use of fire.

I never said I didn't want new wardens, I said I didn't want shitty ones. And if that happens to align then so be it. That's on them. If they get fired they can always try again. It's not like they would get fired literally every time, if anything it tells them what they're doing wrong lol. And next time, they might (probably won't, given jb players) learn from it. If you get fired for being shit, that's nobody's fault but your own.

 

[Mark!]

I never said I didn't want new wardens, I said I didn't want shitty ones. And if that happens to align then so be it. That's on them. If they get fired they can always try again. It's not like they would get fired literally every time, if anything it tells them what they're doing wrong lol. And next time, they might (probably won't, given jb players) learn from it. If you get fired for being shit, that's nobody's fault but your own.

Good point but it can still be used to fire new people to the community. Personally I don't think it's worth the risk of people just firing wardens that are new and not really doing that much wrong... And I feel like people aren't actually gonna give good criticism to wardens that are being fired. On the other side I agree that it's annoying when people force 3 times in a row and do nine square, I would rather see a suggestion to the rules that people can't spam one minigame in a row cause it makes the game less fun. But that's just my take on it.

 

[Semicolon Backslash]

I don't really have a strong opinion on this but if we are to implement it here are the built in options. Any weird solution outside of this will probably not happen.

(oh yeah warden_veto_postaction doesn't work from my testing)

 

[kingaasohk]

Introducing the fire command will most definitely bring out more toxicity between reds and blus. It won't really improve wardens in my opinion as it will inevitably make them conform to the same Jailbreak routine.Along with that, it'll make people that have a stigma against them more susceptible to harrassment if they wanna go warden.

 

[C_T gaming]

Pros:

• Reds can have more favourable wardens
• More skilled blus can become warden,causing less failrounds
• Reds can fire rule breaking wardens if they managed to force
• Generally higher quality for every round
• More enjoyable experience for the majority

Cons:

• Might be abused by trolls
• Some blus would not be able to become warden
• Newer blus cant learn to be warden
• Blus might abuse this feature in order to not be warden on blu

Solution:

• Add a limit for how many times a person can start a vote/Add a cooldown to fire someone/Increase the percentage needed to pass the vote/Only let the reds be able to fire someone whos been warden more than once
• Serves them right lol,stop doing 9 square every round(If you’re a good warden the only reds that’ll be mean to you are the ones shouting ‘freekill’ when they are clearly kos)
• If you’re new on blu don’t be warden,learn how to be a blu first
• Make someone mini guard banned if they get fired too many times(Wouldn’t allow them to be on blu but doesn’t leave a record for the bans)
• Also maybe allow reports for !fire abusing?

 

[Xergon]

If there's a vocal minority yelling for someone to be fired, it's very likely they'll just be ignored, or reported for overtalking/micspam. I completely disagree with the role-play part. This isn't really a role-play gamemode, it's literally a power fantasy to control 20 people and be an asshole. It's also mainly a place to just screw around. I ocasionally play on flux.tf, and it's very rare that the fire command actually works, due to it requiring 2/3rds of the server. So nobody bothers to attempt it when they know they have to convince 16 other people (which includes the blues) to go through with firing them.

 

[Zee]

Generally speaking i feel like the !fire command is not constructive and 99% of the time useless, griefers are rarely overall disruptive of the experience as they rarely exist for more than 3 rounds and leaving it to be dealt with by admins and blus is much better than giving dubious tools to reds that are honestly more prone to firing without thinking.

reds’ opinion of a warden generally flips each round and honestly you can’t trust them to be impartial with the !fire command.

 

[ItsNotCalassic]

I've seen on other servers where they implement a vote to say vote mute a certain person or to vote guard ban someone. I feel like if that was somehow implemented into firing a warden I could see that wouldn't be as easily abused since it would need the entire server to vote in an instant. You could also limit the amount of times the vote could be initiated per round or limit the amount of times a player could initiate the vote per map. I feel like !fire should be implemented when there are blues who don't know what they are doing or just plain out rule breaking as a quick fix until an admin joins to deal with it.

 

[Bananawastaken]

I feel as if "people forcing warden to do asshole shit" isn't being given the severity it deserves, not only does it kill the enjoyment of the game, it happens a LOT and people would agree with me. While YES there are people that grief the fire mechanic, there are also way more realistic scenarios that justify an implementation of it.
I feel as if it should be implemented with SOME adjustments to prevent spam and abuse.
But you cant outright avoid abuse entirely(obviously).
Not adding fire because it has a chance of being abused has the same logic as banning splash damage weapons because mass freekillers use them.

 

[Random Coffee Table]

I understand the pros and cons of this pretty well, and there seems to be a decent amount of each going into this. I don't think this needs to be implemented because it adds minimal value for a host of potential problems. A lot of the posts talk about a high amount of fires that need to be in chat (even higher the rtv I think) and if rtv has taught me anything, it only gets used on complex and nowhere else. Even then it is a bit of a struggle to get because just a few couple can abstain and cause it to fail. So just being able to pull it off feels more like a threat to the current warden than an actual solution. However, where this will end up being used the most is on new players (specifically squeakers) who will just be pushed away from playing. The last thing you want a new player who's suddenly warden is to insta fire them and run them off. If you don't like the warden, most new players are easy to melee to death and you've a fire done.

I know this isn't my best opinion piece, but it just seems to be more trouble than it's worth for something that'll be used to remove new/ young players more often than Bambi deciding to do 9 square or me doing 9 crush (best minigame done @ me).