Admin disrespect (3 Viewers)

[Madact]

http://strawpoll.me/4777936

Poll

POLL


POLL


POLL

I meant on here. It would be easier to do it here then to do it on an external website.
Hawwis can make it, or one of the admins can make it.

 

[Madact]

I tried to copy and paste the title of that poll but it's too long. Fml.

Though, that title says that we should "change a rule of "admin disrespect"". I'm slightly confused, because admin disrespect is tied in with insulting on offensive language.

a) Offensive language
You may not use any offensive language, which includes insults; excessive raging; disrespecting admins or other players or provoking them; or any kind of discrimination. Racism is strictly forbidden.


Unless you mean, the rule should be improved upon with a listing the sanctions for this rule? Or, at least list somewhere the appropriate sanctions?

 

[Schildkröte]

What I'm implying is that a new rule should replace the existing discrimination rules, meaning that admin disrespect is not sanctioned, however player disrespect is sanctioned, thus meaning all people who choose to disrespect receive the same level of punishment for disrespecting an player with admin, as they would get for disrespecting a normal player.

Basically meaning admins are not permitted to dish out heftier punishments because they themselves were insulted. Greater clarification on the sanctions should be written as well, so both players and players with administrative status know where they stand.

 

[Madact]

meaning that admin disrespect is not sanctioned

So if someone goes 'This admin is shit' (Without mentioning the admins name), it's not punishable?
But if they say 'This player is shit' (With mentioning name, regradless this is the admin or not), then that's punishable?

Basically meaning admins are not permitted to dish out heftier punishments because they themselves were insulted.

That's agreeable. Equality, then.

Greater clarification on the sanctions should be written as well, so both players and players with administrative status know where they stand.

Now this might be a problem. First problem is that we'll need someone to take time out to do this. Also next point is, is it really a good idea to show players admin operations with how much they should be getting?

What about special cases? Such as, if it is there 4th or 5th time punished?
There's too many possibilities to list.

 

[Mösl]

You're not taking the distinction into account. I refer you back to my previous post.

yeah

You're not taking the distinction into account. I refer you back to my previous post.

that distinction is completely retarded though, no admin should have the right to be protected from criticism, no matter how harsch
and even if i say: admin xxx is a bullshit retard admin, so what? if other users call themselfes the same its no problem?

 

[Zeprus]

no admin should have the right to be protected from criticism, no matter how harsch

So basically everybody's allowed to insult admins as much as they want as long as they call it criticism?
That's retarded.

 

[MercyOnly]

So basically everybody's allowed to insult admins as much as they want as long as they call it criticism?
That's retarded.

There's quite a distinct line between criticism and insulting.

 

[Zeprus]

There's quite a distinct line between criticism and insulting.

and even if i say: admin xxx is a bullshit retard admin, so what?

 

[Schildkröte]

@Madact You teased apart the sentence - if it is all together and not split apart it makes sense as it says that disrespect should not be split into admin and player disrespect, it should be just one topic of disrespect.

 

[EvoWarrior5]

that distinction is completely retarded though, no admin should have the right to be protected from criticism, no matter how harsch
and even if i say: admin xxx is a bullshit retard admin, so what? if other users call themselfes the same its no problem?

It's not retarded. It's something that people have to keep in mind.

In this thread, most of the posts have not even tacitly acknowledged the distinction between the two kinds of admin disrespect. What you get then is people talking past each others' points and never fully understanding what the other party is saying.

Zeprud said:

In my opinion insulting/disrespecting an admin is worth a harder punishment as it's not only incredible stupid, as long as you know the person is an admin, but it's also like you say "I literally don't care about the rules and whoever tries to enforce them is just (insert said insult here)." Wich means for me the player doesn't accept the rules, his insulting is beyond rage and he does not care about a light punishment.

While people like inu emphasise the fact that admins are also players and should not be more zealously protected from insults because they have a tag.

This is illustrative of the point I was trying to make. Person A is thinking of admin disrespect in the kind that is also derogatory to the rules as a broader whole, therefore making the person who made the disrespecting remark arguably worse than the average person who says something insulting (excluding more extreme degrees of insulting, hence average). Person B however makes their point while having general insulting in mind, the kind that targets a person and have no broader relevance as to their attitude to the rules. To acknowledge Schild's legitimate claim that my example in my post was still directed to the person: I recognise that it was not the best example, I meant to post a remark that sounds not just insulting to an admin, but also reflects a negative attitude to the rules.

Now, I know that inu will stick by his point even when he has the distinction clear in his mind. I just named him as an example here. This does not degrade my claim for the need for people to make the distinction, though, because that point still stands. People who disagree with a separate rule for admin disrespect must recognise that there are two different kinds, and their rejection of the rule should be on the ground that even insulting remarks that reflect on the rules should be treated as regular insulting. Then we know that at least we're all thinking of the same thing, and on what grounds the rule is accepted or rejected.

I did not take a stand for either side in my post. I am merely trying to make sure that this discussion is as intellectually sound as any half-rational discussion on the internet could be. That cannot be accomplished when people on each side have completely different kinds of insulting in mind. As said earlier, and this is crucial: the side that disagrees with the rule can only legitimately make their claim if they state that they reject the opinion that remarks that reflect a broader negative attitude towards rules should be treated harsher.

Continue keeping that in mind and you can reach a conclusion knowing that the rational people on both sides made their votes on legitimate grounds. I'll personally move away from taking a side.

 

[Mösl]

So basically everybody's allowed to insult admins as much as they want as long as they call it criticism?
That's retarded.

yeah criticism, and if an admin can't handle a "lol wtf retardmin, badmin etc" they shoudln't be allowed to be admin anyways

 

[Madact]

This only all formed on the part of particular admins making bigger punishment times then insulting regularly. If we just change that attitude certain admins have, wouldn't it just sort it instead of going through the effort of listing down every sanction punishment?

I thought people just said 'admin is shit' when they're angry. So I usually just make humor out of it. They end up leaving aha.
In fact...have I ever done a admin disrespect ban? xD
I only gag only insulting unless it's seriously bad. To the point where, after there gag they continued.

Anyways, all I'm seeing is some form of elaborate on that rule and a smack on the bum to let admins know it should be treated as the same as insulting.

Inu mentioned that we should just hire a competent team, then we wouldn't have to deal with this. Easier said then done. We've tried to improve the voting system so far, but sometimes we can't detect abusive admins until they are in the team. Hence why I believe the trial period is there? Though don't get me wrong, it's also their for over reasons such as training, trust building, etc.


Anyways I wanted to wrap this up, been reading so much I'm going to start getting confused again.

 

[Zeprus]

yeah criticism, and if an admin can't handle a "lol wtf retardmin, badmin etc" they shoudln't be allowed to be admin anyways

I'm not sure if you're a troll or not. Either way if admins have to accept every insult players have to as well. Because admins are only players too, wich means you don't want any punishments for insulting/disrespecting? Why are you even participating in this discussion?

 

[Sir Andy]

I'm not sure if you're a troll or not. Either way if admins have to accept every insult players have to as well. Because admins are only players too, wich means you don't want any punishments for insulting/disrespecting? Why are you even participating in this discussion?

So if someone doesn't agree with you they aren't allowed an opinion? Thing is, players do accept insults all the time. Team Fortress 2 is a game played by a very immature player base, meaning that you just dismiss any pathetic insults. Just because you have the power to ban because someone called you 'a noob' doesn't mean that you should.

 

[Hellboy]

So if someone doesn't agree with you they aren't allowed an opinion? Thing is, players do accept insults all the time. Team Fortress 2 is a game played by a very immature player base, meaning that you just dismiss any pathetic insults. Just because you have the power to ban because someone called you 'a noob' doesn't mean that you should.

Why don't we remove the insulting rule totally then? Seems like you just wanna get rid of the rule completely.

 

[Madact]

Oh give over now.
It's all common sense. Zeprus did not obviously mean it like that.

Lets just wait for this poll and come to a decision instead of dragging this out even further with misunderstandings.

Closed. I'll open it when we have the results.

 

[Zeprus]

So if someone doesn't agree with you they aren't allowed an opinion? Thing is, players do accept insults all the time. Team Fortress 2 is a game played by a very immature player base, meaning that you just dismiss any pathetic insults. Just because you have the power to ban because someone called you 'a noob' doesn't mean that you should.

I've never banned for insulting and I don't plan to do. The point I mentioned is that he basically says rules that forbid insulting are not necessary, wich they of course are. Just because it's a game it doesn't mean you don't have to behave. But that's not even the point of this thread so I won't respont to anything else regarding this problem. We have rules for a reason.

 

[Madact]

Closed.
While it is, please vote on the poll Schild provided in the discussion.
Lets give this a cool down.

 

[Madact]

Right cool down period over.
According to that poll, apparently...16 people want it to change...right xD

Well suggestions are open to how we approach this.

 

[OxyGenE]

and even if i say: admin xxx is a bullshit retard admin, so what?

didn't saw that before and would lake to give my point of view. saying "admin xxx is a bullshit retard admin" is insulting and the incarnation of absolute useless. but, saying "admin xxx is a BAD admin BECAUSE HE SHOULD MUTE A SPAMMER AND NOT BAN HIM (taking the case of a spammer for exemple.)" is criticism and it is constructive.
insult= punishment
criticism= no punishment