Declined Remove build limit on US trade (1 Viewer)

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sneezing slug

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I'm not sure if this is a blanket across all Panda servers, but specifically on US trade I've noticed a build limit where the server will randomly destroy engineer buildings when a certain threshold is surpassed for total number of buildings. I can only assume that this is a means to mitigate the amount of stress that the server goes under, but I'd argue that the stress of an immense number of buildings is significantly dwarved by the map itself, which can flood the map with a swarm of halloween skeleton NPCs at a moment's notice.

If it's a matter of balance to prevent unstoppable nests, the RTD command has proven without fail to be an inevitable tie-breaker when it comes to engineer garrisons. I feel that even if an entire team of 12 engineers did their full set-up in one spot, one would still be able to take it down with one godmode or powerplay roll. Not to mention the coordination of a good spy and their team.

Finally I'd just make a plea for the fact that trade servers are sandboxes for goof-around behavior, shits and giggles, and generally silly antics. Engineer nests, and the proceeding attempts to destroy said nest, are a part of that and to limit it is a pretty significant loss, especially when the build limit has been entirely random and affects player's buildings right in front of their eyes rather than cleaning up the RTD-spawned dispensers that often pile up in spawn.

I can't be the only person who finds themselves frustrated whenever I want to screw around as an engineer and find my buildings vanishing into thin air because of what feels like an unnecessary limiter.
 
As a US-Trade regular I don't really find a problem in having the build limit. I used to play engineer like crazy on US-Trade but after a while it can get very tedious and I don't believe that most regulars would like having 20 sentries on the enemy side which would be extremely annoying to get rid of. And cause maybe the opposite team fun but the other team stress and annoyance. If anything I believe that the limit should either stay the same as is or maybe just increase the limit by a bit since I do believe it is a "a bit" short. But its up to the panda community and admins on this one I personally don't find it that big of a deal. And me and some other panda us trade regulars would definitely not want to load up the server just to see the entire enemy time hurdled up in one spot spawn camping our spawn with sentries.
 
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I'm not sure if this is a blanket across all Panda servers, but specifically on US trade I've noticed a build limit where the server will randomly destroy engineer buildings when a certain threshold is surpassed for total number of buildings. I can only assume that this is a means to mitigate the amount of stress that the server goes under, but I'd argue that the stress of an immense number of buildings is significantly dwarved by the map itself, which can flood the map with a swarm of halloween skeleton NPCs at a moment's notice.

If it's a matter of balance to prevent unstoppable nests, the RTD command has proven without fail to be an inevitable tie-breaker when it comes to engineer garrisons. I feel that even if an entire team of 12 engineers did their full set-up in one spot, one would still be able to take it down with one godmode or powerplay roll. Not to mention the coordination of a good spy and their team.

Finally I'd just make a plea for the fact that trade servers are sandboxes for goof-around behavior, shits and giggles, and generally silly antics. Engineer nests, and the proceeding attempts to destroy said nest, are a part of that and to limit it is a pretty significant loss, especially when the build limit has been entirely random and affects player's buildings right in front of their eyes rather than cleaning up the RTD-spawned dispensers that often pile up in spawn.

I can't be the only person who finds themselves frustrated whenever I want to screw around as an engineer and find my buildings vanishing into thin air because of what feels like an unnecessary limiter.
thats mostly due to the fact that the server clears up not used entities to avoid crashes.
also i doubt its useful having 12 dispensers or 12 sentries? omegalul
 
While I don't agree that it should be removed entirely, maybe it should be tweaked to make it a little less annoying for those playing the class. Seeing people carrying buildings and having them vanish in their hands I can understand it would be an annoyance. If it could be tweaked to go after only sentries and dispensers that would be helpful, but maybe have it avoid teleporters?
 
While I don't agree that it should be removed entirely, maybe it should be tweaked to make it a little less annoying for those playing the class. Seeing people carrying buildings and having them vanish in their hands I can understand it would be an annoyance. If it could be tweaked to go after only sentries and dispensers that would be helpful, but maybe have it avoid teleporters?
i doubt that's possible or worth even the effort.
i didnt define any kind of limitation we just use a plugin to free up not used entities which may cause that behaviour.
but to be honest i never experienced that a dispenser or sentry disappears (anyone else here who noticed that?)
 
i doubt that's possible or worth even the effort.
i didnt define any kind of limitation we just use a plugin to free up not used entities which may cause that behaviour.
but to be honest i never experienced that a dispenser or sentry disappears (anyone else here who noticed that?)
I've seen it pop up a few times and some people get a little upset, just trying to maybe find a way to make both sides happy. Figured the plugin would be a little difficult to change
 
i doubt that's possible or worth even the effort.
i didnt define any kind of limitation we just use a plugin to free up not used entities which may cause that behaviour.
but to be honest i never experienced that a dispenser or sentry disappears (anyone else here who noticed that?)
My sentry disappeared while I was holding it in my hands today and I had two dispensers vanish within a minute of placing them yesterday
 
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used to play engineer like crazy on US-Trade but after a while it can get very tedious and I don't believe that most regulars would like having 20 sentries on the enemy side which would be extremely annoying to get rid of. And cause maybe the opposite team fun but the other team stress and annoyance.

This is the polar opposite to pretty much every experience I've had where a major concentration of engineer buildings have been set up. The enemy team LOVES to destroy sentry nests. It literally becomes a fully-fledged objective and 80% of the server participates in either trying to defend it or destroy it. I have no other way to respond to this beyond saying that this is just plain wrong.

In server, you made the statement "Why does it matter?" when this topic was brought up, and if that was genuinely your stance on it then we may as well be playing on trade_plaza and do absolutely nothing save for sit in spawn and shoot between the spawn doors. People like to do things while they're trading, advertising or shopping for items. And considering engineer bases are a huge part of TF2 gameplay, it really should not be that far out to expect that sometimes people want to do that on a server thats entire purpose is to be a pastime until they find a trade.

thats mostly due to the fact that the server clears up not used entities to free them up to avoid crashes.

So why does it randomly delete entities that are being actively used instead of deleting the RTD-spawned buildings or buildings of those who are AFK (or outright kicking AFKs, god knows the VSH could use this)? Once again, considering how much stress the server goes under as-is when Doomsday is triggered, I have to doubt that a significant amount of engineer buildings are going to be what causes it to push over the edge considering how small the stress of engineer buildings are compared to what the map already does.

also i doubt its useful having 12 dispensers or 12 sentries? omegalul

But it isn't a pub with a capture point or a payload, it's a trade server. People of all classes are going to dick around and in the case of engineers that often leads to a bunch of people occasionally going engineer and creating a nest. There is rarely so much as twelve engineers on, which is why I'd even counter-suggest that if engineer buildings ARE an issue (which I sincerely do not believe), we'd benefit more from a class cap on engineer (per team rather than the whole server) rather than a build limit, and even that should be generous to allow as many people as possible to enjoy what could be their favourite class or simply the class they want to play in that moment. Because if they can't build there isn't really much of a reason to play engineer in the first place.
 
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I remember having a conversation about this problem, I don't remember who with but we arrived at the conclusion that it's caused (at least partly) by the map having too many entities.
trade_minecraft_neon is the most entity heavy map I know, here's an excerpt from the compile log:
Code:
entdata [variable] 614562/393216 (156.3%) VERY FULL!
 
I remember having a conversation about this problem, I don't remember who with but we arrived at the conclusion that it's caused (at least partly) by the map having too many entities.
trade_minecraft_neon is the most entity heavy map I know, here's an excerpt from the compile log:
Code:
entdata [variable] 614562/393216 (156.3%) VERY FULL!

Pretty much my point, if anything the map should probably be optimized better rather than randomly deleting people's buildings.
 
Pretty much my point, if anything the map should probably be optimized better rather than randomly deleting people's buildings.
we did not create the map so its not really our job - i want a stable server and this can only be accomplished with using this plugin.
no matter of the outcome of your poll this will most likely not be changed soon unless there's a better version of the map thats less performance hungry.
TF2 has a limit of 2048 entities and having it above will cause the server to crash and reboot and thats not the point to make 4 people more happy that their dispenser lasts 4 hours during the gameplay.

aint an issue for the server itself (CPU/RAM performance) just a limitation on the engine which cant be modified.
 
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I made a previous suggestion (totally unrelated to US trade or this thread) in regards to the VSH server which came to the conclusion that instead of removing a map from the cycle it should simply be edited, which leads me to assume that Panda possesses people with experience in Source SDK. If that's the case, editing and optimizing the map would be incredibly easy and a realistic option, and acquiring the VMF to edit an even easier thing to do. Saying it's not your responsibility comes off as strange when it's a problem facing the map your server runs on 24/7.

From one server+community owner to another I can respect that you want to keep the server as stable and crash-free as possible to keep the player experience as uninterrupted and lag-free as possible but I think this is a band-aid and honestly exposes a larger issue about the map itself and not just the constricting limit to engineer players.

thats not the point to make 4 people more happy that their dispenser lasts 4 hours during the gameplay.

I also don't appreciate my stance being lessened because I happen to acquaint myself with some people who happen to agree (partially or fully) with my post. I went through the process of explaining my stance in full because I want it to be clear that I'm trying to speak beyond just what I want to do as a player when I'm online. This is after hours and hours of seeing people, regulars and newcomers, grow frustrated of their buildings vanishing; I've seen an issue and so I made a post about it.

If you disagree then you disagree but please don't smear me with some comment that insinuates that I'm acting out of bias or that I tried to get people I know to give my opinion (which happens to be entirely my own) more weight. Otherwise I would not have posted the link to this thread on the trade server because I also wanted to get outside opinions on the matter.

I just want to suggest what I feel would be an improvement to the overall experience of the server, that's all.
 
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I made a previous suggestion (totally unrelated to US trade or this thread) in regards to the VSH server which came to the conclusion that instead of removing a map from the cycle it should simply be edited, which leads me to assume that Panda possesses people with experience in Source SDK. If that's the case, editing and optimizing the map would be incredibly easy and a realistic option, and acquiring the VMF to edit an even easier thing to do. Saying it's not your responsibility comes off as strange when it's a problem facing the map your server runs on 24/7.

From one server+community owner to another I can respect that you want to keep the server as stable and crash-free as possible to keep the player experience as uninterrupted and lag-free as possible but I think this is a band-aid and honestly exposes a larger issue about the map itself and not just the constricting limit to engineer players.



I also don't appreciate my stance being lessened because I happen to acquaint myself with some people who happen to agree (partially or fully) with my post. I went through the process of explaining my stance in full because I want it to be clear that I'm trying to speak beyond just what I want to do as a player when I'm online. This is after hours and hours of seeing people, regulars and newcomers, grow frustrated of their buildings vanishing; I've seen an issue and so I made a post about it.

If you disagree then you disagree but please don't smear me with some comment that insinuates that I'm acting out of bias or that I tried to get people I know to give my opinion (which happens to be entirely my own) more weight. Otherwise I would not have posted the link to this thread on the trade server because I also wanted to get outside opinions on the matter.

I just want to improve the overall experience of the server, that's all.
i understand your point of view and i appreciate the feedback but its not our map and the only edit we've made is the no build restrictions thats all.
of course maybe someone would be up to optimizing the map but the thing is like i said its not our map so i doubt someone will invest hours and hours in work to fix issues there.
it's not as easy as you say with editing here and there and its better - uncompiling the map may lead into missing textures and will cause even more headaches.

also another thing to consider is if the map gets updated all of the optimization work is trashed again so there's that.
 
I agree with kevin, unless there is an updated map that fixes the issues to were you can have everyone's dispensers/sentries, etc. up, it shouldn't be changed.
I made a previous suggestion (totally unrelated to US trade or this thread) in regards to the VSH server which came to the conclusion that instead of removing a map from the cycle it should simply be edited
Not really, you wanted it removed and made a small thing about changing it instead (which at that point is a duplicate post to this: skyhigh map fix)
 
As a trade admin, i understand your frustration towards the limit of buildings, but kevin has fully explained why it cannot change, and i have to agree with him. the more buildings there are the more likely the server can lag or crash because it's already a heavy map. i haven't had that many complaints about it., only a couple question about it. but i think the amount of buildings you can have at a time is perfectly reasonable right now.
 
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Original poster wanted thread to be removed so i guess this can be declined. Thank you for the suggestion though
 
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