Pending [FF2] Remove vsh_2fortdesk (1 Viewer)

[Jiji]

I think a lot of people already know what's wrong with this map, the map is so open that there's basically almost no cover for the hale. I don't think I've ever seen a hale win on this map when the server was above 15 players.

I attempted to make some changes to the map but seems like they didn't help much. The only way to make this map somewhat playable is with a total rework, which is something I'm not willing to do.

 

[Avedist]

The map is unbalanced, yes, but removing a cult classic is a touchy subject. I think there are players who would like the map to stay because of nostalgia (nostalgia ≠ good). And some people would definitely appreciate the challenge of playing hale on 2fortdesk, me, for example. If we remove maps for being too open, we can also remove moving in because I rarely see bosses win on that map. Yesterday the final score of the map was 2-15.

 

[Jiji]

The map is unbalanced, yes, but removing a cult classic is a touchy subject. I think there are players who would like the map to stay because of nostalgia (nostalgia ≠ good). And some people would definitely appreciate the challenge of playing hale on 2fortdesk, me, for example. If we remove maps for being too open, we can also remove moving in because I rarely see bosses win on that map. Yesterday the final score of the map was 2-15.

Not a fan of the whole "nostalgia/classic" argument. Who cares about that if the map is unbalanced and just unfun to play on? I imagine the only people that have fun on this map are sweats.

 

[Keres]

The map is great for reviving the server, but other than that, it's unfair and not fun.

 

[Otis]

The case I have is the same, as Keres...

The map is brilliant to get a dead server back on its feet, and I'd almost want to give it another try with another edit, to be quite honest.
Removal at this stage seems unnecessary. But at the same time, the map has inherent flaws.

1. It's too small
2. The fights don't last long
3. Fights do not feel satisfying
(I'm a very big fan of medium-sized maps, if it wasn't obvious)

I'll go with option one for now until otherwise someone puts forward a better solution.
(Speaking for FF2 mainly, I don't know if VSH is good with it or not)

 

[Jiji]

A bit late but in case people don't want a removal, another option is adding the version of 2fortdesk from the NecGaming FF2 X10 server. I got permission from their mapper to suggest the map for panda but at the time I figured it'd be better to make my own version.

In a few ways it's similiar to the panda version (falling off the map doesn't kill, updated jump pads etc.) but the layout is a bit different. Hale spawn is also different, on this version hale spawns at the point.

Not gonna request a change to the poll yet since I'm not sure if @Kevin would be fine with a map from another server.

 

[TimTims]

I will agree with the others on this.
The map functions as a good server reviver, but it has many issues that just make it an unfun map to play in my opinion (as an FF2 player).

I've voted for removal, but should the poll be changed to suggest replacing it with Kruphixx's suggestion I would change my vote to replacing it with the updated version.

 

[Keres]

A bit late but in case people don't want a removal, another option is adding the version of 2fortdesk from the NecGaming FF2 X10 server. I got permission from their mapper to suggest the map for panda but at the time I figured it'd be better to make my own version.

In a few ways it's similiar to the panda version (falling off the map doesn't kill, updated jump pads etc.) but the layout is a bit different. Hale spawn is also different, on this version hale spawns at the point.

Not gonna request a change to the poll yet since I'm not sure if @Kevin would be fine with a map from another server.
View attachment 28958

It's always worth a try. If it doesn't succeed, we can always create a new thread.

 

[Jas :)]

Why this of all maps
You have things like dust showdown which are factually dog shit comparatively and not to a map like 2FD.
There has to be maps that deserve to be culled before 2FD even gets thought about.

 

[Keres]

Why this of all maps
You have things like dust showdown which are factually dog shit comparatively and not to a map like 2FD.
There has to be maps that deserve to be culled before 2FD even gets thought about.

In that case you should make a thread yourself

 

[Jas :)]

In that case you should make a thread yourself

I've been waiting for the inevitable thread about all the maps but I assumed balance and bug fixes came before that. (talking about VSH)

 

[Brick]

Why would you remove any map from rotation if you can literally vote for any other map, and if its still selected, you can rtv to the next one.
I do agree that its very hard to play hale on 2fortdesk but that is not a good enough reason to remove a map cuz then half of the vsh maps in rotation need to go. if you dont like a map dont vote for it, nominate something else and vote for that.
@Kruphixx if you thought this map was already hard to play on as hale, why did you change it so that falling off the map as red doesnt kill? seems counterintuitive to me.
we could just revert back to the old 2fortdesk map, remove the book in the middle, make people die again when they fall off the map and suddenly playing hale on 2fortdesk doesnt seem that daunting anymore.

Unless a map is outwardly broken/buggy or has bad performance i dont see a reason to remove anything from rotation

 

[Abject]

Speaking from vsh perspective.
The map is certainly a classic, but yeah it's never been very balanced. Perhaps some kind of effective sniper nerf could help better hales win more often than not. Unavoidable knockback is the real killer of hales on small maps like this.
The hale spawn on this map allows for some cool super jump tech which I imagine many hale players might enjoy. On the other hand, wallclimb options are pretty bad for HHH (then again, most things are bad for HHH).

During the tier list craze in the vsh discord a few weeks back, this map was fairly consistently rated high to mid tier for what it's worth. Granted, the sample size was like 16 lists.
Personally I probably wouldn't miss the map if it were to be removed.

I must say that allowing reds to survive falling off the map was a terrible decision, the map was already heavily stacked in the red team's favor and now they have a free escape route covering both sides of the map.
Who even asked for this... like what was this change supposed to achieve exactly?

 

[Jiji]

When I suggested the update for 2fortdesk no one was really against any of the changes, including the pit changes. At the time thought it'd be a quality-of-life change. Besides, it's not like people can instantly go back to playing after falling off, they get stunned and hale has a chance to get them.

So is it my fault? No. People could have just spoken up and say what they don't like.

 

[Jas :)]

When I suggested the update for 2fortdesk no one was really against any of the changes, including the pit changes. At the time thought it'd be a quality-of-life change. Besides, it's not like people can instantly go back to playing after falling off, they get stunned and hale has a chance to get them.

So is it my fault? No. People could have just spoken up and say what they don't like.

"besides, it's not like people can instantly go back to playing after falling off"
As engineer ive had rounds where i have saved my own life 3 or more times by intentionally jumping off
Kinda weird for hale to have to ignore everyone else to come and get someone who TP'd to a pain in the ass spot to get to if theres more than 3 players left alive.

It creates a meta of sticking to the edge of the map/running to the edge of the map in hopes of a get out of jail free card.

 

[Abject]

When I suggested the update for 2fortdesk no one was really against any of the changes, including the pit changes. At the time thought it'd be a quality-of-life change. Besides, it's not like people can instantly go back to playing after falling off, they get stunned and hale has a chance to get them.

So is it my fault? No. People could have just spoken up and say what they don't like.

Sadly I was on a break from tf2 in general when this and many other questionable changes were implemented. I would have definitely been opposed to that particular change. I would have also gone through great lengths to get as many actual vsh players as possible to see the thread. Too many sweeping changes have been implemented with minimal feedback.
On this topic, why are map changes for vsh and ff2 bundled together? This allows vsh players to possibly dictate ff2 map pool and vice versa. What if the playerbase of one server enjoys a map while the other hates it? What then?

As for the change itself, you call it a quality of life change but making deathpits not so deadly seems like a massive balance shift to me.

 

[Jiji]

On this topic, why are map changes for vsh and ff2 bundled together? This allows vsh players to possibly dictate ff2 map pool and vice versa. What if the playerbase of one server enjoys a map while the other hates it? What then?

I don't know, ask Kevin that. Seems like separating the map pools is a big no-no currently. It was suggested in the past.

 

[@aC.`]

As someone who enjoys playing as hale and has played vsh for over a decade i would miss this map, and in my opinion if reds couldnt drop off the map it would be way better for hale which is at a pretty weak spot right now

 

[Heather]

I'd have to agree with aC wholeheartedly, I'm not a FF2 player, but for VSH the deathpits not instakilling has made this map brutal to play as hale

 

[Heather]

I should add, I don't want to see this map removed, I'd sooner ask for a fix than see one of the most played maps removed from the pool