Fail Hale Rules. (1 Viewer)

PNN

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Heck I don’t even know the rules regarding slaying as hale anymore, suddenly everything was changed and all I hear from the admin is this «it’s been like this since 2014.», something I have never heard about.

Have also tried to find out more about it, but without any luck. Gmellow and Chaz can confirm lol.
 

Je Hooft

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IMO this falls under failhale:
- Being AFK as Hale
- Pretending to be AFK as Hale
- Being 'friendly' as Hale
- Stopping with fighting halfway through a round because you're getting pinned to a surface as Hale
- Stopping with fighting at any point in a round and saying something along the lines of "kill me"
- Running away from players (and camping)
- Suiciding as Hale at any point in time
- Leaving a match and rejoining shortly after

And this does NOT fall under failhale:
- Playing RPS with the last remaining red
- Dying from fall damage (put it in here because the splash text usually says something like "[player] had 27 HP remaining", which should be fixed)
- Leaving a match and not rejoining (because I then assume you have personal stuff to deal with at that moment, and you became Hale at an unfortunate moment)
- Explaining why you failhaled and having a valid reason (e.g. mouse/keyboard disconnected, game froze, someone called)
- Dying really quickly while trying unsuccessfully to conquer a choke point as Hale
- Dying because you're getting pinned to a surface but also raging and showing any other indications that you're trying to get out of the situation as Hale

Is there any confusion about any of this or am I forgetting some important scenarios?
 

Matth

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I don't know why but some misunderstanding has been fomented in these weeks, all of a sudden. Maybe I know why but that's not the point.


@Je Hooft perfectly explained everything, rules have always been these ones. And, as I've always explained to users and as I also replied in a recent report against a failhale, I don't give much importance to failing as Hale. I mean, I never kick you the first times you do in a row. You get a warning and nothing else.
The problem is if you do it regularly and that becomes a habit. Any form of punishment is applied by me only after more rounds continuously and intentionally failed as Hale.

________________________________

Important notes:

1.
It happens several times that you connect, it's your first round and that corresponds to you suddenly becoming Hale, but you don't want to become Hale. The system doesn't warn you in these cases, because of how the system has been created, so it's not your fault if you couldn't reset points in time.
And this does NOT fall under failhale: [...]
Explaining why you failhaled and having a valid reason
What to do then? Standing AFK waiting for people to kill you? That would be hale's timewasting + reds' pointfarming.
What I personally do (and also other people) is disconnecting during the pre-round and reconnecting to avoid ANY wastes of time; or an admin may slay him by request, whatever.
So the next person in the queue replaces you as Hale, simply, in the same round without wastes of time.

a) What to do if also the next person didn't want to become Hale? It's not his fault as well.
Not a problem: admins will not punish the replacing Hale, of course. As I wrote above, the problem is not one time, but when you do that as a habit and intentionally.
b) Ok, how can you understand if a Hale disconnected and reconnected in the pre-round just because he didn't like that boss (he wanted Saxton hale and he got CBS) ? Simply, if he disconnected that's because he didn't want to play as Hale. If he rejoins and suddenly wants to play as Hale with a better Hale (if he does not reset points when he reconnects, he keeps being #1 in queue), the obvious answer to this point is given.
c) What if the former Hale didn't disconnect in pre-round / didn't suicide as soon as he could? Nothing, if that's not a habit. A warning, simply. It's up to admins understanding if a user does that intentionally many times or not.


2.
Suiciding as Hale at any point in time
The valid reason which may explain this failing as Hale is this:
"Don't continuously give up as Hale after you decide to play the round, unless your HP is definitely low and it's almost certain you will die if you reach the opponents"
If you are a walking dead basically (a very low ratio of hale's HP / # of survivors), and you don't want to waste time, why should you even be forced to continue playing after you played a serious round? You can still play till the end, but you can suicide to avoid wasting time, mainly if you are close to mapchange and you'd like to let another person playing. But it's up to you.



I don't take any action against 1., 2. and generally what Je Hooft included as "not failing as hale".

Then, if you really failed as Hale, what then?
Nothing. I mean, it's not a direct kick or ban if you did any of the things listed in the "failing as Hale" written by Je Hooft.

That's the thing I'm less harsh about (along with serial AFK people). You get a warning and nothing else.
The problem is -and I repeat once again- if you do that several times intentionally. Then, it becomes a form of big disrespect towards users, and you get punished.


At least that's what I do since I became admin 1 year ago and what I used to do as admin here in 2014/2015.

____________________________


Hoping I've been clear enough, finally.



P.S. We need the !vshtoogle to let players totally disable being Hale without resetting points all times. That would solve many problems. But I suppose we gotta wait other months.
 

chaz

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In my opinion, and let me know if others think this, but disconnecting when you are Hale in pre round is as bad, if not worse, than a normal fail hale. If you do this, you are forcing someone else to play Hale that may not want to. If you forgot to !resetq, just play hale, and stop being afraid of losing. It is not fair in the slightest if you force someone else to play Hale that still has the chance to !resetq.
 

Matth

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That's something legit and useful to avoid timewasting, since timewasting is against the rules.

What's the problem of forcing someone else to play Hale that probably may not want to (usually they do want)? Nothing happens against that person.
What to do if also the next person didn't want to become Hale? It's not his fault as well.
Not a problem: admins will not punish the replacing Hale, of course. As I wrote above, the problem is not one time, but when you do that as a habit and intentionally.
Still better than standing AFK waiting for people to kill you, because
That would be hale's timewasting + reds' pointfarming

The real problem here is this:
just play hale, and stop being afraid of losin
Why should people care of this provocation? If they don't want to play as Hale in the first place, why should they be forced to? Not everybody enjoys playing as Hale like you do.


That's simply a sterile discussion, a long sterile discussion which is over at least for me.


Have a good day.
 

chaz

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What's the problem of forcing someone else to play Hale that probably may not want to (usually they do want)? Nothing happens against that person.
No, usually people do not want to play Hale. Take someone that HATES being Hale, lets call him Bob. Lets take someone else that disconnects pre round as they dont want to be hale, lets called him Max (lol).
So, Max disconnects pre round forcing Bob to play hale. Bob doesn't have time to disconnect before he becomes hale. Bob hates being hale, therefore he is most likely to waste time by fail hale-ing and letting people kill him. This is wasting time right? The sole reason why you think disconnecting pre round should be allowed.

Also, lets bring another person into the mix that likes being hale, lets call him Chav. Lets say the hale for the round is HHH. Max disconnects pre round because he doesnt like to play hale and especially because it is HHH, forcing Chav to be HHH (the worst hale in most peoples opinion). Chav finds it rude that he is forced to play with the worst and the most disliked hale when, if Max just played, Chav would not have got HHH.

Have a better day.
 
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Gmellow

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Disconnecting in the preround and forcing someone else to play hale (which in most of the cases doesn't have time to disconnect/or doesn't want to disconnect for any reason in the world) is already timewaisting, because if no admin is online, then it's timewaisting and pointfarming since no one can slay him, if an admin is online it still takes some time to slay him, plus the end round time and another pre-round time which are completely useless and time consuming for no reason.

It happens to be hale without warning, I know, happened to me too but it's not a tragedy let's be honest, for example, I hate being hale on military when the server is full but if it happens I play, I die, and then I have fun without problems the round after.

The rest of the rules listed by Je are perfect and I also would like if the Fail Hale rules could be added to the VSH rules post because they are pretty important.

Also, I don't wanna tell an admin how to be admin of course but in my opinion afks and failhale should be punished more often.
 
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PNN

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That's simply a sterile discussion, a long sterile discussion which is over at least for me.
11076


As if anything Gmellow and Chaz said was even registered.

The real problem here is this:
Why should people care of this provocation? If they don't want to play as Hale in the first place, why should they be forced to? Not everybody enjoys playing as Hale like you do.
If you allow people to disconnect in pre-round, you force the next person to be hale. By simply making it a rule, this wont be an issue anymore. Let's not forget about the countless !resetq binds every VSH regular has.

All they are asking for is to simply make a rule about it. I can write it, but I can't add it as I'm not full admin. I think listening to the current players on VSH is better than still mentioning Blutz from 2014. It is 5 years ago, I think we need to change it.

Also Kevin, please just add the plugin Tbot made for this reason like 6 months ago. Rofl.
 

Heather

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The biggest problem about the "disconnecting is ok" is the chain reaction it causes, it doesn't Solve anything, it just pushes the problem to the next person in queue which in turn causes them to recieve flak for failhaling even if they're someone who uses the resetq when prompted, disconnecting before hale round starts just causes other people to be punished, shouldn't be allowed, should be punished.
 
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Matth

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Now I gotta answer everybody, once again, after all the times I did publicly and privately.

READ CAREFULLY

1.
No, usually people do not want to play Hale.
False: statistically, in the server there are more people who play as Hale then people who use to reset queue points. And that cannot be denied, it's objective stuff.
That's why I say you are opening a debate on something which is allowed and happens very rarely, statistically again. But as you wish, ok.

2.
Max disconnects pre round [...] especially because it is HHH, forcing Chav to be HHH
I wish you had read point 1.b above carefully. The case you mentioned is something understandable by an admin and punishable, as I said.

3.
Chav finds it rude that he is forced to play with the worst and the most disliked hale when, if Max just played, Chav would not have got HHH.
That's a no-sense sentence. I may rebut with this: Max disconnected while having Saxton Hale as boss, so Chav gets saxton hale. If Max played, it was possible Chav got HHH next round, instead of a certain Saxton Hale. This explains why you can't base arguments on luck.

4.
It happens to be hale without warning, I know, happened to me too but it's not a tragedy let's be honest, for example, I hate being hale on military when the server is full but if it happens I play, I die, and then I have fun without problems the round after.
You are you. Every player has instead his own preferences of gaming. It's not a tragedy, and that's obvious, it's a game, but forcing people to play something they don't want to play is not something good, just because you and others do like being Hale. If that person could not reset points, what can he do, considering he doesn't want to play Hale? It's not his fault. Let's be clear on this, because you all seem to ignore the unlucky player who becomes Hale not by his fault: we can't force him to play as Hale.

5.
in my opinion afks and failhale should be punished more often.
I never use to be very harsh on fail hales and AFK people. Gmellow, the more we are harsh with these light things, the less we attract new users. I know, this may sound weird, but you regulars are used to the server and enjoy it. New players, if they get punished for so stupid things, they may take the server in antipathy and not join it anymore. It's right to punish, but for these things we need to be less harsh, so we can catch more new users. That's totally different from other rulebreakings where you totally show lack of respect.

6.
I would not expect this lack of maturity by an admin, but I'm used to that. I talked in private and publicly with players, all the times I've been asked. I never ignored requests of explanation. Still, after 100 times I uselessly keep repeating always the same things, I get a bit bored. I know why this is being fomented recently all of a sudden, and it's pretty sad, but that's not the point of the conversation.
I won't post here pvt stuff concerning this topic, but I'll provide to my superiors in case they ask.

7.
Let's not forget about the countless !resetq binds every VSH regular has.
I am a regular and I've never had a !resetq bind. But even if I had, that's not the point. You may have all keys binded with /resetq, still if you don't get warned in time, it's not your fault if you become Hale suddenly without your will. And we can't force players to play just because of a mistake by the system that doesn't warn them, if we know those players ALWAYS reset points after they get warned by the system and are always polite players.

8.
disconnecting before hale round starts just causes other people to be punished,
I already wrote above:
"Other people" do NOT get punished by this.
If a Hale disconnects in preround and any admin punishes the replacing Hale because he stands AFK and doesn't want to play, then the admin is wrong.



-----



MY PERSONAL OPINION AFTER WHAT I READ:

Don't think, guys, I did not understand what you said above. Before reading the solution I suggest, let's sum up:
  1. That's something very rare as I already said. I personally deal with about 4-5 cases per week of people who disconnect in pre-round, or suicide just after, or disconnect as soon as possible. I accept all of the three, the important is there is as less timewasting as possible. That's actually the proper thing to do if you couldn't reset points, instead of being AFK waiting for people to kill you in spawn. You said, even if you suicide/disconnect there is some timewasting. Surely, of course surely, less timewasting than letting that player being AFK. The replacing Hale may stand AFK (less usual) or may fight (more usual), but in more of 50% of cases we may waste less time!
  2. In those few cases that people disconnect in pre-round, we also have to consider the percentage of cases of replacing Hales who would have wanted to reset points, or who would have played as Hale anyway the next round. And as I wrote above, most of times people do play as Hale, statistically.
  3. Even if all this was considered failing as Hale,- and this is not actually as we said, but that's instead what to do in order to waste less time-, I would not punish it anyway so harshly. I mean, it should be (as I already said above several times with failing as hale in general) an offense repeated more and more times, intentionally. And considering the rarity of the case, you should be the unluckiest man on the Earth to be Hale on the 1st round all the times (to not getting warned)! So, I am not harsh also on obvious and non-contested "failing as Hale", the ones you all agree on.
What everybody here doesn't consider is: ok, but the person who could not reset points (not his fault) and does not want to play, how do we "safeguard" him? We CAN'T force a player to play as Hale without his will, and of course we can't let him being AFK because that would be timewasting+pointfarming for REDs.


SOLUTION:

I would agree with considering failing as Hale also the disconnecting in preround/suiciding as soon as possible. I'd be the first supporting this thing you all suggest.

BUT we need the !vsh toggle before.
If a player doesn't generally want to play as Hale, he can disable being Hale at all forever, one-time.
This would solve many problems. After the plugin has been added, this may be easier to manage:

If a player disconnects/suicides after he could not reset points, he gets a warning: it is failing as Hale after this rule-editing you suggest.
In the warning, he understands that he can use the command !vshtoggle. If he fails again more times for the same reason, then he starts getting punished.

In this way we "safeguard" POLITE players who become Hale by accident and decided till now to disconnect and waste less time, so now they can have a permament solution; and we can instead punish who intentionally leaves just to waste time or because he didn't like the boss, failing as Hale.
Still, I repeat, we need that !vshtoogle thing. Without it, this editing to rules can't be applied, for the reasons I've CLEARLY explained above.


We as staff already asked Kevin to add the !vshtoggle. I am the first one who'd need it.
If you want to help us, keep tagging Kevin during these days so you can convince him and add that plugin we actually need.
 

Heather

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I already wrote above:
"Other people" do NOT get punished by this.
If a Hale disconnects in preround and any admin punishes the replacing Hale because he stands AFK and doesn't want to play, then the admin is wrong.
The main point I was trying to get across is that it forces another person to failhale, even if that isn't punished simply because it's unfair, it's a wasted round that you cannot ignore, hence why making disconnecting to avoid hale against the rules necessary.
 

EvoWarrior5

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The biggest problem about the "disconnecting is ok" is the chain reaction it causes, it doesn't Solve anything, it just pushes the problem to the next person in queue which in turn causes them to recieve flak for failhaling even if they're someone who uses the resetq when prompted, disconnecting before hale round starts just causes other people to be punished, shouldn't be allowed, should be punished.
While I agree with this to some extent, you get warnings that you're about to be Hale for like 3 rounds before it happens. If you really don't want to be Hale, people can pretty easily just reset their points when they get that message instead of waiting for the last minute. The only scenario in which people don't have this opportunity is if they also just joined the round before and are next in queue. Possible, but what are the odds?

I still agree that some people will get messed up by it, but I think the reward outweighs this. Especially given that, if a player doesn't want to be Hale and knows they cannot disconnect, if there is an admin they will slay them to avoid wasting time. But this also doesn't even give the next person proper time to reset their points (or if they do, then the next person after THAT might get screwed!). Only way to solve this new chain reaction is for the admin to wait with slaying until they're sure that the next person in queue wants to play. Which can get downright ridiculous.

So point being, letting people leave is certainly not perfect and it could allow people to abuse it to avoid certain bosses (my biggest problem with that), screwing over the next person. The alternative, though, is either consistent time wasting, or keeping the chain reaction alive but just in a different way.

(also let's be honest, if so many people hate that one single boss then it might also be time to finally remove that garbage. But that's a whole other discussion.)

Edit: or, as has been said, let's just finally make it so that people can permanently opt out of Hale and stop talking about this. *shrug*
 
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