Completed [JB] Friendly Fire Rule Edit (1 Viewer)

[crubf]

Current rules:

FF stands for “friendly fire.” Friendly fire can only be turned on by the Warden with either !wmenu or !wff. The Warden will always need to give a heads up before activating friendly fire (at least 3 seconds)

Meatgrinder is a minigame where all Prisoners are in one (deemed) confined space and FF is turned on.

Proposed rule edits:

FF stands for “friendly fire.” Friendly fire can only be turned on by the Warden with either !wmenu or !wff. The Warden will always need to give a heads up before activating friendly fire (at least 3 seconds.) Friendly fire may only be activated under the following circumstances:

• Cell Wars
• Meatgrinder
• When playing a minigame which necessitates Friendly Fire, such as Arena, Knife Pit, or Pool Arena
• Any custom last request which specifies FF must be enabled
• On "Minigame All Day" Last requests to speed up the round if necessary

Meatgrinder is a minigame where all Prisoners are in one (deemed) confined space that is not within the playable area of any minigame unless stated by a custom LR and FF is turned on.

What?
The proposed edit will eliminate the ability for Wardens to toggle Friendly Fire in minigames in general unless it is a core part of the minigame (Arena or Knife Pit, the latter of which is, on certain maps, the only "arena" which exists and is intended to function as one) or a part of a last request (FF all day, Hunger Games, etc). A special exemption is handily carved out for Minigame All Day last requests (Climb all day, etc), as I am aware that without the use of FF those days can be prolonged a bit too hard.
The meatgrinder rule is also re-worded to close potential loopholes.

Why?
The edit is inspired by recent events as well as past events. The current issue with allowing FF in minigames is that there is no real defined measurement of where it goes from FF in a minigame to meatgrinder, which is not allowed under some common circumstances. Two seperate people acting in good faith may feel differently about whether a minigame is "too big" or "too small." This has caused frustration and confusion between players and, in some situations, staff.

I have discussed options with the team and any alternative rule edit mentioned still requires judgement to be made in-game. I believe that vaguely leaving this up to players is a fault because people may accidentally commit meatgrinder or otherwise lead to confusion. Since the TF2 mercs do not come equipped with tape measurers to measure the area of minigames to deem it sizeable or not, nor does anyone have any interest in creating (or reading, or memorizing) an exhaustive list of minigames where FF may or may not be enabled, I propose this edit which makes things simple and clear to everyone.
I do not believe FF in generic minigames is a necessary component as it takes away from prisoners' playing experience to rush a round. Since these games generally have built-in ways to kill reds themselves, FF shouldn't have a part in any of them.

When?
Since this is a major rule change I will leave the poll up for 2 weeks.

 

[Fairy]

Seems like a fine rule edit to me, nothing to mention about it

 

[Zee]

It seems we always have that discussion ingame alot, on what counts as big enough for FF, closing the discussion like this is honestly a better option than letting hell run loose with a looser definition imo, Good change

 

[Cowboy]

I want the community to know that this proposed rule changed was workshopped and compiled alongside most of the staff team and we believed that this would be the best solution to the confusion around meatgrinder rules and FF in general. We are also prepared to allow the community to disagree with this and vote no because we respect the communities opinion and will follow their lead accordingly. This rule completely simplifies FF rules and eliminates any confusion around when its okay to enable ff but will also limit its use.

Use your vote wisely.

 

[Semicolon Backslash]

Would pool count as a minigame that would permit friendly fire under this rule change? Just double checking since I feel it would just be wasted space without it.

Would last minute friendly-fire fights in open areas of the map (not in minigames) still be allowed as well? Or do I have to start being a good warden and not spend 9 minutes playing theater?

Otherwise I agree with the change, keeps things simpler.

 

[crubf]

Would pool count as a minigame that would permit friendly fire under this rule change? Just double checking since I feel it would just be wasted space without it.

Otherwise I agree with the change, keeps things simpler.

Maps with pools also have arenas/knife pits, and the couple of maps I can immediately think of that have pools have switches which turn them into races (carcerem, hop) or, IIRC, give them diving boards, which can be a theatre alternative (jailfort). Since it's not explicitly implied FF should be used in these pools it would most likely not be allowed. That is just coming from me but I'm sure the team would come to agree with this.

 

[ItsNotCalassic]

Allowing Pools and soccer to remain having FF would be immensely popular. I think the rule edit should allow those two areas.

 

[Semicolon Backslash]

Maps with pools also have arenas/knife pits, and the couple of maps I can immediately think of that have pools have switches which turn them into races (carcerem, hop) or, IIRC, give them diving boards, which can be a theatre alternative (jailfort). Since it's not explicitly implied FF should be used in these pools it would most likely not be allowed. That is just coming from me but I'm sure the team would come to agree with this.

I see where you're coming from but I think pools should still have the ability for friendly fire to be turned on in them, while you point out hopjb and carcerem as pools with additional features, most pools have nothing more than a diving board and some not even that (famouz and stormfront as examples).

I also rarely see pools used for anything but friendly fire and diving competitions, the aforementioned extra modes never see use. Race is nigh unplayable due to class speed differences and ping differences, duck hunt is banned, and water polo/pool ball has had flawed execution in every map it's in.

Pools are also as large or larger than the map's arena most of the time and have the distinct feature of having water which can lead to some more interesting scenarios that set it apart from arena, I think it would be a shame to relegate them to solely a diving competition area and nothing more.

 

[crubf]

I see where you're coming from but I think pools should still have the ability for friendly fire to be turned on in them, while you point out hopjb and carcerem as pools with additional features, most pools have nothing more than a diving board and some not even that (famouz and stormfront as examples).

I also rarely see pools used for anything but friendly fire and diving competitions, the aforementioned extra modes never see use. Race is nigh unplayable due to class speed differences and ping differences, duck hunt is banned, and water polo/pool ball has had flawed execution in every map it's in.

Pools are also as large or larger than the map's arena most of the time and have the distinct feature of having water which can lead to some more interesting scenarios that set it apart from arena, I think it would be a shame to relegate them to solely a diving competition area and nothing more.

I will bring this up with the team and see what they have to say about this. I appreciate your perspective.

As for soccer @ItsNotCalassic I will not be budging on that as soccer balls are generally lethal on contact and suffice as a way to kill reds. I don't want to create too many bonus exceptions for relative size of games as that's what this suggestion is intended to fight against.

 

[Zee]

Soccer minigames already don’t last long, I don’t think disallowing FF in them is that big of a deal esp since I haven’t personally seen it be used in soccer in ages but that’s anecdotal.

Pool though I have to agree with Semi here, They’re basically Arenas with the added bonus of water making the dynamic interesting, Hope it gets added in the pool of allowed minigames with FF personally

 

[PistolPoppinSince02]

I agree with Semi that some minigames ought to be permitted for FF still, Pool being a great example.
Furthermore I like our status quo of anywhere spacious enough can be an 'Arena', but I agree it's hard to define rigidly.
It's all map dependent too, and doubt we would like to define specific 'FF Permitted' areas on a per map basis. Hopjb as an example, has a terrible knife pit, but it's parking lot gives significantly more breathing room as a fighting venue.
In all earnest I would be happy with this suggestion either way, but lean slightly in opposition.

 

[SirKrookodile]

I also agree with semi that pool is a fine exception to the rule. As it is mostly used as an arena area. Pool is rarely used as is, Diving competitions are usually just worse theatre's since a lot of the time I feel like it moreso boils down to a popularity contest than other theatre variants. Using pool as an arena area feels fine as it's main use is to add more vertical movement to arena, spicing it up more with the addition of an extra direction to move in.

 

[crubf]

With most of the team seeming fine with ff being allowed in pool and otherwise having no immediate objections I have edited this line accordingly:

• When playing a minigame which necessitates Friendly Fire, such as Arena, Knife Pit, or Pool Arena

 

[ItsNotCalassic]

With most of the team seeming fine with ff being allowed in pool and otherwise having no immediate objections I have edited this line accordingly:

• When playing a minigame which necessitates Friendly Fire, such as Arena, Knife Pit, or Pool Arena

i'ma change my vote now, thanks
gn

 

[Nergal Nergalton]

I feel a better alternative to the Meatgrinder rule would be changing the definition to “done in an area no bigger than a cell or Medic”.

 

[Cowboy]

I feel a better alternative to the Meatgrinder rule would be changing the definition to “done in an area no bigger than a cell or Medic”.

that sort of "x" amount of space rule really doesnt fit in how the rules are presented and would just cause people to nitpick imo.

 

[Noirr]

Meatgrinder in minigames can be fun if not overdone, so maybe the rule could be changed to "Not within the playable area of any minigame unless stated by any custom LR"

 

[crubf]

Meatgrinder in minigames can be fun if not overdone, so maybe the rule could be changed to "Not within the playable area of any minigame unless stated by any custom LR"

This is a good catch. I've edited it in. It would've already been allowed anyways but it's good to make it clear it's still an acceptable LR.

 

[crubf]

Rule edits will be added verbatim on the turn of the month.