Completed [FF2] Rule Suggestion (1 Viewer)

[Maddox]

I've wanted to suggest a new rule for FF2 since this can be annoying sometimes.

Excessive airblasting should be considered punishable.

In case someone doesn't know,each airblast gives the boss 8% rage.Yes,the airblast can come in handy in certain situations,but doing in continuosly can get your teammates killed and only make things worse.This has been a raising issue ever since new players have been joining and it should be punishable.
Of course this is my opinion,everyone else can state their oppinions.

Tagging: @Madact @Kruphixx @Darky and @blood3y to see what they think about this.

 

[Shea]

Just up the amount of ammo airblasting uses, 100 seems fair to me.

 

[Jiji]

Just up the amount of ammo airblasting uses, 100 seems fair to me.

Wouldn't this cause even more dealying, since pyros would constantly have to jump from one ammo pack to another, or just camp on a dispenser (like they do now)?

I honestly see no reason to not add this rule, pyro will probably always remain as the most annoying class on the server and no amount of nerfs will change that.

On a side note, would be great if this rule was added for VSH also

 

[ImJustaTiger]

On a side note, would be great if this rule was added for VSH also

Vsh defenetly also needs this rule if this gets approved. Pyro ragefeeding is one of the biggest problems beside knockback that we have right now.

But when does Airblasting become "excessive Airblasting"?
Obviously if the Pyro is just running up to the hale und just continuously Airblasts, but what else would u say falls under this?

 

[Aerial]

I've wanted to suggest a new rule for FF2 since this can be annoying sometimes.

Excessive airblasting should be considered punishable.

In case someone doesn't know,each airblast gives the boss 8% rage.Yes,the airblast can come in handy in certain situations,but doing in continuosly can get your teammates killed and only make things worse.This has been a raising issue ever since new players have been joining and it should be punishable.
Of course this is my opinion,everyone else can state their oppinions.

Tagging: @Madact @Kruphixx @Darky and @blood3y to see what they think about this.

there is no such handy situations :/, i just want it to cost 75 and also make it unable to spam like delay each, otherwise this is madness

 

[Darky]

Wouldnt mind if it was added, tho I wouldnt be too strict with the rule tho as there would probably be a big grey line for multiple admins on when exacly its excessive or not. Changing the blast limit or cooldown aint gonna make the class any more fun, so just adding the rule is a simple solution to not having to nerf him to the ground with stupid debuffs.

 

[Aerial]

making one player upset(pyro) is better than the whole team xD
its already not fun with those spammers :<

 

[blood3y]

So so, the discussion about airblasting starts once again, I'll explain my thoughts on the situation.
We all know that airblast is an option on pyros' as a way to push the hale away for a small amount of time, and there could be two major situations:
1) That specific pyro player will be airblasting all the time and moving around as you mentioned above, without doing damage and giving the hale an opportunity for free rage(s), however that itself counts as not dealing damage / trolling, which is already a reason for punishment.
2) Again that specific pyro player will be camping next to a dispenser, or an area with a lot of ammo around, and they will wait for the hale to come to them, only to useless airblast him. Now that also falls under the category of "camping", so that's a reason for punishment too.

So what I meant, is that all that airblasting issue could fall under different categories of the already set up rules, which we have. If we add another one specially for airblasting, it could cause misunderstandings of every cause, example could be: The rule is added, and somebody in the server accidentally airblasts another player to the hale and gets killed because of it, this might or might not result in future reports on here about it, when it's supposed to be an accident.
If the admins just get "inside" the current situation, they could stop that with their common sense and knowledge of the rules and the gamemode itself. But if that rule becomes better written and well explained, I wouldn't mind adding it, at this position, it's really poorly made and could cause many questions.

 

[Maddox]

Yes,airblasting someone into a boss can be considered as an accident but if people do it on purpose then that's a whole other topic.

 

[Chae]

So for the topic of this conversation I’ll reinforce that in the past I witnessed VSH admin slay pyros who were deemed to be spamming airblast ( rather than kicking/banning).

So long as the pyro is dealing damage and not just using airblast to push away hale/ into teammates then they should be fine. I’d rather leave to slaying and at worst banning people that use the feature on the pyro for the purpose of griefing to include; not dealing damage, airblasting hale into teammates to purposefully get them kill, or spam airblasting hale for the purpose of building rage to target specific people and setups. Pyro already has the negative stigma on VSH so seeing it being enforced I would all for, however I’d rather it lean on an extreme case before issuing punishment.

Since this thread for the time being is focused on FF2, I’d have it fall with the camping aspect of the rule. I fear that polling it will result in a mostly positive in favor of adding it due to that negative stigma on pyro as players that might be not as flashy or verse in the class generally may play a more supportive/defensive style of just using airblast whenever hale gets close to them rather than an aggressive w+m1 aspect like in casual.

@Maddox since you’re the OP, after getting feedback is there any particular format you’d like to poll this suggestion/wording for addition of the rule?

 

[Maddox]

So for the topic of this conversation I’ll reinforce that in the past I witnessed VSH admin slay pyros who were deemed to be spamming airblast ( rather than kicking/banning).

So long as the pyro is dealing damage and not just using airblast to push away hale/ into teammates then they should be fine. I’d rather leave to slaying and at worst banning people that use the feature on the pyro for the purpose of griefing to include; not dealing damage, airblasting hale into teammates to purposefully get them kill, or spam airblasting hale for the purpose of building rage to target specific people and setups. Pyro already has the negative stigma on VSH so seeing it being enforced I would all for, however I’d rather it lean on an extreme case before issuing punishment.

Since this thread for the time being is focused on FF2, I’d have it fall with the camping aspect of the rule. I fear that polling it will result in a mostly positive in favor of adding it due to that negative stigma on pyro as players that might be not as flashy or verse in the class generally may play a more supportive/defensive style of just using airblast whenever hale gets close to them rather than an aggressive w+m1 aspect like in casual.

@Maddox since you’re the OP, after getting feedback is there any particular format you’d like to poll this suggestion/wording for addition of the rule?

A poll would be fine,since then we can see who all agrees and who thinks otherwise.

 

[Solar]

adding a blast limiter and a higher cost would make it a bigger nerf either one or the other maybe both you can make a poll with those options depending on how hard you want it nerfed
Would be less frustrating anyways

 

[Chae]

@Maddox
With the task below being pending and listed as starting for a change in pyro and how airblast works. I want to ask if you want to continue making this FF2 specific or branch out to include VSH as well as I know it is also a problem that has been discussed before on forums and in the server itself? As well if you have any particular options you want the polls to be, I have provided some exampls of which would be;

1. An addition to the rules;
• Excessive Spamming of Airblast
Do not spamming airblast against hale in an attempt to inadvertently get your teammates kill or assist hale in any manner.

2. An addition / clarification to the VSH/FF2 teaming specific rule;
• No teaming.
Do your damage, help your team and don’t waste time. An example of this includes: being friendly, spamming airblast against hale in an attempt to inadvertently get your teammates kill or assist hale in any manner.

3. An addition to the "The No Teaming Rule Clarification" specific thread / a merge of that thread into the current Gameserver rule;

• No teaming.
Do your damage, help your team and don’t waste time.

What does this mean exactly? Does it mean that you have to help your team basically all the time without a break? Well, not exactly. While players are allowed to camp, they have to be helping their team in some way. Engineers can build sentries so they can damage the hale and Medics can heal other team members, for instance. Pyros can spam airblast against hale in an attempt to inadvertently get your teammates kill or assist hale by giving them rage or getting into crowds of teammates.

So if players just go to some random spot to hide at the start of the round and stay there the whole time without helping their team in any way, they can get punished for it.

First example of this is players going to the secret room on weapon_storage at the start of the round, for instance. They usually don't help their team in any way, since Hales don't always come to the secret or come there at the very end of the round. Another example is the two Medics camping in a tunnel stratergy on some maps, like weapon_storage/weaponsdepot or dustshowdown. This stratergy is allowed if the Medics actively take part in the round in some way, like coming out every once in a while to heal teammates (every 2 minutes or so). Hiding in that spot for most of the round not healing the team and not participating is considered inactivity and is punishable.


Now you may ask... how can you actively take part in the round as a Heavy or Engineer, for instance? Those classes are supposed to camp most of the time, right? As a Heavy, you can shoot at the Hale every time they're visible. As a Engineer, you can use your pistol or wrangler. Even though you're not dealing heavy amounts of damage, you're still helping your team in some way.


TL;DR: If you're planning to hide somewhere from the very start of the round for the majority of it without helping your team in any way, you can get punished for it.

Completed - Crack down on Pyro's airblast in VSH

Before I get into the nitty-gritty part of this post, I'd like to make some things clear. I acknowledge the fact that plenty of discussion regarding knockback in VSH has been had on these forums already, mainly revolving around Sniper. The topic has been, as far as I understand, very much...

www.panda-community.com

 

[Maddox]

@Maddox
With the task below being pending and listed as starting for a change in pyro and how airblast works. I want to ask if you want to continue making this FF2 specific or branch out to include VSH as well as I know it is also a problem that has been discussed before on forums and in the server itself? As well if you have any particular options you want the polls to be, I have provided some exampls of which would be;

1. An addition to the rules;
• Excessive Spamming of Airblast
Do not spamming airblast against hale in an attempt to inadvertently get your teammates kill or assist hale in any manner.

2. An addition / clarification to the VSH/FF2 teaming specific rule;
• No teaming.
Do your damage, help your team and don’t waste time. An example of this includes: being friendly, spamming airblast against hale in an attempt to inadvertently get your teammates kill or assist hale in any manner.

3. An addition to the "The No Teaming Rule Clarification" specific thread / a merge of that thread into the current Gameserver rule;


What does this mean exactly? Does it mean that you have to help your team basically all the time without a break? Well, not exactly. While players are allowed to camp, they have to be helping their team in some way. Engineers can build sentries so they can damage the hale and Medics can heal other team members, for instance. Pyros can spam airblast against hale in an attempt to inadvertently get your teammates kill or assist hale by giving them rage or getting into crowds of teammates.

So if players just go to some random spot to hide at the start of the round and stay there the whole time without helping their team in any way, they can get punished for it.

First example of this is players going to the secret room on weapon_storage at the start of the round, for instance. They usually don't help their team in any way, since Hales don't always come to the secret or come there at the very end of the round. Another example is the two Medics camping in a tunnel stratergy on some maps, like weapon_storage/weaponsdepot or dustshowdown. This stratergy is allowed if the Medics actively take part in the round in some way, like coming out every once in a while to heal teammates (every 2 minutes or so). Hiding in that spot for most of the round not healing the team and not participating is considered inactivity and is punishable.


Now you may ask... how can you actively take part in the round as a Heavy or Engineer, for instance? Those classes are supposed to camp most of the time, right? As a Heavy, you can shoot at the Hale every time they're visible. As a Engineer, you can use your pistol or wrangler. Even though you're not dealing heavy amounts of damage, you're still helping your team in some way.


TL;DR: If you're planning to hide somewhere from the very start of the round for the majority of it without helping your team in any way, you can get punished for it.

Completed - Crack down on Pyro's airblast in VSH

Before I get into the nitty-gritty part of this post, I'd like to make some things clear. I acknowledge the fact that plenty of discussion regarding knockback in VSH has been had on these forums already, mainly revolving around Sniper. The topic has been, as far as I understand, very much...

www.panda-community.com

Branching it out to VSH can be also helpful.And just spamming airblast in general is the main issue,since nerfs would be kind of unbalanced.The rule would be the best solution.

 

[Chae]

I'm not sure the specific verbage you would like to suggest add the rules we currently have so I'll just add a poll to touch baseline with what we want and we'll go from there. I would strongly encourage anyone interested in this topic or would like to add in regards to what to look at in terms of punishing players doing so and to what extent. Personally as long as they are just using airblast / using it in a manner to aid with the enemy team ( or grief your own teammates) then I see nothing wrong with it. Assuming this does get implemented I want it to be transparent how we'll enforce it so I'll just ping my fellow staff in case they have anything else they want to address.

Poll closes on the 27th of October.

@blood3y ,@Darky ,@Magglet ,@Kruphixx

 

[Madact]

Pretty much @Chae took over this. I wanted to remind to please run by rule changes with me before going live as it's now part of my responsibility for this role.

If anything all I have to say is it's a shame it has to come to this. There is going to have to be strict guidelines about how this is enforced or confusion is going to happen, particularly with at what point is it considered excessive.

 

[BreadandYeast]

Airblasting should only be punishable when it is clear that the guy doing it is teaming or hard trolling, falling under those clear and established categories, adding a new rule for airblasting would just lead to further unnecessary discussion and confusion on what exactly would make an airblast 'excessive' as stated by multiple people previously. It'll end up giving moderators a carte blanche on pyros who airblast via obfuscation.

Also, why are we specifically targeting new players? (90%~ of those whom airblast excessively) Getting warned, slayed or kicked for doing something wrong in the context of gameplay is a massive turn-off to the server, there is also ZERO indication that you are giving the boss rage by airblasting them so the only way to learn that is when you eventually get yelled at by other players. We should seek a solution to this issue instead by prehaps adding a indicator showing how much rage you have provided the hale or any other possible solutions rather than creating a band-aid rule that will just create more problems than solutions (lest you count untrialed and unjust punishments as non-issues.)

 

[Madact]

So to sum up what's the takeaway is that the team is aware of the situation that can arise from purposely excessive air blasting the hale and they will take the necessary steps to deal with this.

I have to say though that it has to take some really bad cases in order to issue a ban over it, hence it may seem that no one is getting punished from it. But I can assure that the team has been somewhat been issuing warnings (text + kicking) and, if the warnings aren't taken seriously, a ban will be placed.

So this is completed? Might include a small change in general rules to include this example under general disruptive behaviour.