Declined [JB] It Is Time, I Want Miami Gone (2 Viewers)

[Cowboy]

As a known shitty map creator, I will stick with my guns and say that all maps, unless they are absolutely abysmal, should remain in rotation. Let the players decide what they want to play. A server killer is only a server killer as long as the map doesn't get RTV'd/is currently being played. The map is definitively flawed on a core level, not unlike my maps, but it's something different. It forces this community to work beyond the regular boring rotation of HopJB and like three other, admittedly good, maps that incentivize boredom but in a sinister, more long-term way that slowly sucks the life out of the community. You say it always gets RTV'd, but people vote the map in the first place for a reason.

Since jailbreak isn't exactly a vibrant gamemode these days and TF2 isn't exactly enticing new players by the thousands anymore, I think it's best we keep more maps than we remove, even if some are shitty. If a round is bad or a map doesn't play well, at least it's different. That was my psychology in making all of my maps; it's just something different than the usual box layout with the 15 bog-standard minigames. I'm voting to keep it on my principles and to support fellow mapmakers who poured so much love into this map. Remember guys, we shouldn't be trying to make jailbreak some perfected and formulaic gamemode, that's not what the community was built off of. Shitty maps, chaos, poor round times, bad minigames, etc., are what this community and its roots are formed from just as much as the inverse of all of those. The same can be said for all other gamemode communities like deathrun or TTT.

Honestly, this take has changed my mind.

Jailbreak should not be put in this square hole that we keep trying to adhere to and just reconigize that imperfections are okay to exist within the gamemode, its what has kept us here for so long.

Miami still is a flawed but still a great experience within moderation. The RTV system is there if people want to change maps. I think the path forward for jailbreak is to stop trying to chase perfection and be okay with flawed maps sometimes for unique experiences.

 

[MoonRise]

This feels more like "I want Miami gone, because i hate it personally". Theres many other maps that are way worse than miami could ever be (Famous, Volcano, Quake V1, Minecraft-Nightfall, SpaceJail, the undertale one, etc...)

 

[kry]

I personally dislike Miami, I rarely have any fun rounds while playing it. When playing on red there's only a handful of minigames I like, Deathrun, Box Game, Obby and Bhop; the rest just seem over the top and hard to enjoy, personally at least. My dislike goes beyond just the minigame options as well, due to players often rebelling just to gather money to afford a commodity which has no real benefit like the Yacht. This rebelling often draws out the rounds much longer than necessary due to the sheer size of the map and the amount of nooks and crannies there are to hide in.

Aside from the odd chance a blue runs off to gamble during a round, I don't have any real points to make about playing on blue, simply because I haven't done so enough on Miami.

Regardless of my points, there are still worse maps in rotation which should go first (Famous, Volcano, Underjail) so I will be voting no.

 

[Demoman]

I've been putting this one off for far too long now because I know it will ruffle some feathers.

I and many others, want this map gone for many many reasons. For a divisive map such as this, I do want to go over my personal reasons for this maps removal.

Firstly, the good;

1. Miami visually looks amazing.
2. The vibe and theming of the map is phenomenal.
3. Many minigames on the map are very unique, some of which are exclusive to Miami.
4. Common minigames featured on many other maps are given a special Miami spin (GunDodge,Race,Volleyball,etc)
5. Custom guns and upgrades are fun, albeit not balanced in the slightest. Balance isn't the point, they are fun!

Now for the bad;

1. The layout is gigantic with far too much cover. There are too many turns and avenues to the point where rebelling is far too easy.
2. Due to how easy it is to initially rebel, rounds will often end in manhunts that kill the pace of the game.
3. Half of the map is almost entirely unexplored. Since Blus expect Reds to run and often cannot prevent them from doing so, Blus very rarely deign to go beyond the spawning side of the mall.

And the awful;

1. Miami is consistently a server killer. Someone could compile the data, but even anecdotally we all know this to be true. A 20+ player server can quickly dwindle to below ten or even nothing when Miami is chosen.
2. People do not want to play Blu on this map. The lack of want to be on Blu leads to tiny, or non-existent, Blu teams. Few Blus means boring rounds for Reds, both those trying to earn LR and those rebelling.
3. The Money System. The Money System (or just M.S from now on) breaks this map in half. Miami being a server killer is because of the M.S. The M.S encourages Reds to delay as long as possible to collect or gamble as much money as possible. Freedays are chosen and used to money farm and break the balance of the remainder of the map. Conversely Blus are encouraged to be more trigger happy to collect Red's money. Rather than letting off small things, Blus are incentivized to kill every Red that slips up. The M.S creates a very punishing consequence for dying. Reds and Blus alike will do whatever they can to weasel their way out of DRs to save their money as death divides their money by a hefty chunk. The M.S therein causes many toxic dynamics completely alien to any other map in rotation, applying so much pressure otherwise absent in JB. Were the M.S gone, Miami would be a flawed (as seen above) but pretty good map in my opinion. The M.S encourages behavior that I believe is counter to Panda's ethos and actively diminishes players enjoyment while on the map.

Much of what was stated here is of course my opinion, however Miami killing the server consistently is a known fact. Yes we can always rtv the map, but at what point do we just do away with it. If a version is made sans the money system, I will be all on board to reintroduce the map. Just as we do not have Galaxy in rotation while we wait for that map to be fixed, neither too should we have Miami in it's current state.

Lotta reading here, so thank you for making it to the end. Had to do the topic justice, and like I said, its a thought I've been holding off on for at least three weeks now.

I think this map should have a higher cooldown then the rest of the maps because of how different it is from the rest to make it fair

love it tho

 

[_Black]

Yes. Still miles better than galaxy. Sorry not sorry.

 

[CheemsGaming]

We should instead remove cargo and volcano Z!!1
But yeah, while I'm not the biggest fan of Miami's layout and MS (love the minigames though), I think we can use this energy on a different map, probably crossroads or volcano (not underjail that map lowkey underrated)

As a known shitty map creator, I will stick with my guns and say that all maps, unless they are absolutely abysmal, should remain in rotation. Let the players decide what they want to play. A server killer is only a server killer as long as the map doesn't get RTV'd/is currently being played. The map is definitively flawed on a core level, not unlike my maps, but it's something different. It forces this community to work beyond the regular boring rotation of HopJB and like three other, admittedly good, maps that incentivize boredom but in a sinister, more long-term way that slowly sucks the life out of the community. You say it always gets RTV'd, but people vote the map in the first place for a reason.

Since jailbreak isn't exactly a vibrant gamemode these days and TF2 isn't exactly enticing new players by the thousands anymore, I think it's best we keep more maps than we remove, even if some are shitty. If a round is bad or a map doesn't play well, at least it's different. That was my psychology in making all of my maps; it's just something different than the usual box layout with the 15 bog-standard minigames. I'm voting to keep it on my principles and to support fellow mapmakers who poured so much love into this map. Remember guys, we shouldn't be trying to make jailbreak some perfected and formulaic gamemode, that's not what the community was built off of. Shitty maps, chaos, poor round times, bad minigames, etc., are what this community and its roots are formed from just as much as the inverse of all of those. The same can be said for all other gamemode communities like deathrun or TTT.

also this is genuinely one of the best JB related takes I've ever seen, good on you screechy

 

[Eagle_attack]

I like the dexter morgan (miami) map. Very cool minigames and encourages rebelling.
However not a lot of blues during this map ( most of the time ) so the rebelling gets annoying sometimes….but otherwise i think we should keep it!

 

[Mehgend]

As a known shitty map creator, I will stick with my guns and say that all maps, unless they are absolutely abysmal, should remain in rotation.

I agree and that is coming from the guy who got instacity removed because i didnt like it
idk that one just didn't really work for a lot of people and someone had to nitpick a bunch to get it gone. And I feel like Miami is in a similar boat that Instacity was. Now I stand by the removal of that map still (sorry lol), but I have consistently voted no to remove maps and yes to add maps (besides Aztec. That map blows!) because a lot of why Ilike the gamemode is its imperfections.



I played JB on Panda when we only had a handful of maps. It was hop, mlcastle, jailfort, old wip, famous, minecart, cheretin, casurina, and maybe a few more. MOST of those maps still hold up super well, but even at the time people didnt really like wip and there were times when I just didn't want to play minecart. Compare the small map pool at the time, literally any functional map is better than a collection of maps that are all good. JB is a gamemode that I will always believe does NOT work if everything is perfect. hop is rather small, famous has long as hallways, casurina is held together with scotch tape, wip sucks, chretein has basically nothing to do, minecart is dated, jailfort karts is the most broken thing that still works (jailfort was even more broken back when I first started playing). Did those flaws make me hate those maps? Hell no! If anything it's made me love some of them more.

Even the maps that have recently came out. Cargo is too big, mayan has a weird layout that nobody wants to navigate, carcerem was rather barren up until the new update, crossroads has those damned trees!, aztec is a giga maze, casurina is still half broken, area17 is WAY too big, colors has too many narrow hallways, famouz didn't fix the hallways (made it worse if anyhting), 8bit is really dated atp, underjail has no countdowns for games, xmf is peak, alkatraz has a bizzare layout, etc. Despite all of these, I won't ever RTV a map just because I don't like the map. Even the worst map ever will have a fun session.
And yes, that includes Miami.

Its why I voted no to remove crossroads. I don't like crossroads very much because a lot of it feels very off and the gameplay loop is rather hard to fall into, but I'll be damned if I haven't had some fun times on that map.
It's why I would vote yes to add 2fort or something stupid like that. I'm just here to play the game and have fun doing it. So long as a map isn't broken or overwhelming disliked, I'm fine with playing it once every few sessions. Variety makes the gamemode what it is.
Unless its aztec. I hate you @PFD1.

 

[ItsNotCalassic]

I wouldn't expect a new version of miami to release anytime soon, uni's pretty caught up in his singeplayer map (and sometimes catplanet if he's bored)

Well, I recall he was doing some fixes regarding the money system a couple of months back, but I havn't heard much

On a side note, I was told it is possible to use stripper to remove the money system from a certain backslash, but it's like trying to put a Band-Aid on a gaping wound.

 

[koe]

voting Yes! bullet points echo my own and to add onto said points,

->Red team is encouraged to rebel (no duh) and is given even more incentive due to the placement of money around the map along with it's size; Red team isnt as punished for losing money either if you have people to band together
to get the sentry car, weapons, armor, etc. and the same can be said about Blue team as it encourages and enables trigger-happy blues to kill willynilly to get hoard money for whatever stupid ass upgrades there are<-

It's a very unfun tug-of-war that ends up happening everytime it's voted for as you either have a very anal blue team that camps secrets and intentionally goes out of their way to explore the map (not looking for rebellers)
or a Red team that constantly detours and delays for money, pools it together and suddenly enables a boss fight (either against 1 Player with armor and ammo or the sentry car) that forces the blue team to either die or pause the round and delay so they can """try""" to kill the player (they wont).

tl;dr i dont caaaarrrr, this map has visuals going for it and a "fun" obby, other than that every other minigame forces you to kill large groups of reds that all sit out for minutes at a time
because the warden has a bad case of "Where do I go?" and ends up taking 2 minutes to travel from Point A -> Point B just to play the same fucking minigames

 

[Unicake]

 

[Fade]

Wondering why Miami money cant be used as real money

 

[dimitree]

One of my faviourte things about miami is the load time it takes for people with worse computers to get into the game. I think a great addition to the new map would be a sweeper or just port in some copy of aztec into it.
Till then I'm gonna have to vote no.

 

[Roughly3Ants]

I have fun on Miami, i dont have fun on Volcano

 

[Sym]

i like watching dumbass blus and reds dying to the cars that drive around, so im voting no

 

[PENZTRIKA]

Someone should do an in-depth analysis on why people don’t like Miami. Pull out surveys and shit, to get an idea of how the creator can work to make the map “better for the community”

 

[crubf]

This feels more like "I want Miami gone, because i hate it personally". Theres many other maps that are way worse than miami could ever be (Famous, Volcano, Quake V1, Minecraft-Nightfall, SpaceJail, the undertale one, etc...)

no one is going to make a removal suggestion because they like x. or an addition suggesting because they hate y.

As a known shitty map creator, I will stick with my guns and say that all maps, unless they are absolutely abysmal, should remain in rotation. Let the players decide what they want to play. A server killer is only a server killer as long as the map doesn't get RTV'd/is currently being played. The map is definitively flawed on a core level, not unlike my maps, but it's something different. It forces this community to work beyond the regular boring rotation of HopJB and like three other, admittedly good, maps that incentivize boredom but in a sinister, more long-term way that slowly sucks the life out of the community. You say it always gets RTV'd, but people vote the map in the first place for a reason.

risking myself coming off as hypocritical because i got aztec off rotation initially for saying this but this is the correct take.


miami is a good map and in fact was severely overplayed on it's introduction and im sure people who were around at the time have fond memories of that period. which means in essence it's fine, players today just need to be Suck Less. and going to another map doesnt cure that.

Someone should do an in-depth analysis on why people don’t like Miami. Pull out surveys and shit, to get an idea of how the creator can work to make the map “better for the community”

i really want to say this happened at some point? i think all the gripes are centered around how money incentivizes freekiling or some dumb bullshit. and maybe that the map could use like an extra minigame or two (the latter of which i do agree with)

 

[Nergal Nergalton]

i really want to say this happened at some point? i think all the gripes are centered around how money incentivizes freekiling or some dumb bullshit. and maybe that the map could use like an extra minigame or two (the latter of which i do agree with)

I've hardly, if ever, seen anyone freekill solely to get someone's money.

 

[Fairbee]

Confusing map [where are the minigames at] but fun minigames (some of them) and i like the music

im neutral for this map.

 

[crubf]

I've hardly, if ever, seen anyone freekill solely to get someone's money.

me neither hence why i scoffed at it immediately afterwards