A thread about hales: reworks and a few new ones (1 Viewer)

[Autismo]

Cutting it short, there's only two hale slots left and the problem is that unfortunately for me that means not being able to dump 10 new hales in one suggestion thread, the other problem is that it's only been more than a week since a new batch of hales got added and they're still finding their place amongst the people who play on the ff2 server regularly.
so what should I do about that?
make a thread here, ideas and all, even if they never materialize.
let's cut to the chase:

Preexisting Hale reworks:​

These suggestions are made with mind to the fact that the newer hales are more than fleshed out compared to the older ones, making them feel like nothing but glorified reskins, these are nothing more than proposals.
a download folder for virtually everything listed here will be provided at the end of the thread page.
no gaurantees that the hale reworks or suggestions will work on the other hand, speaking with mind to the plugins/abilities.

reasoning is because despite the fact that the hale has a unique charge ability, his rage is incredibly flat noted, that is all.

reasoning: just a reskin with a matrix effect.

reasoning: you probably already know why.

reasoning: reskin hale, that and it would make ass pancakes incredibly unique, setting aside the reload ability of course because the rage alone is good enough
editor's note: rework image text is meant to include a short range on kill effect aoe ability that simulates the hammer slam he does in slender fortress, deals 10 damage and knocks enemies away when he does.

reasoning: handsome rogue is already pretty stylized and doesn't warrant a rework, this is more or less a bias towards making him more in-line to his inspiration, dio brando.

reasoning: just bland, for the time that he had bhop he was quite fun to use, the problem being is that everything this hale has is just pure jank and doesn't seem to want to cooperate, be it his entangles on rage, the reload opting to hijack mini-sentries over better ones for some reason.
this rework would more or less entirely change the hale and how he operates, he wouldn't ever be at a disadvantage against stuff like highground sitters or so on but at the same time could be exploited by better players who know how to use the jump pads effectively.

why?: because hotline sniper is incredibly bland, that and there's plenty of hales that're just more fun to play, poor reasoning, yes, incredibly but I would prefer a hale that's more fleshed out than having another reskin.
clarification: this hale is incredibly reliant on snowballing, map layout (gets absolutely wrecked in maps with small spots or vents, image more or less tells why: no defensive capability) and getting rounds ended as quickly as possible before people set up.

end of the rework section.

New hale stuff and returning​

a ice wizard medic hale that uses ice related abilities, mostly defensive ones and has the old teleport as his mobility, this fact shouldn't change IF he were to be put onto the server.

A traditional hale with an incredibly unique rage, packs a punch depending on the rocket launcher he rolls and can wipe out groups in seconds because of it.

https://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?t=264121

has the soldine download which more or less is already configured really well for panda's config standards.

old hale that got removed after what I believe was how annoying it was to play against her, so I decided to redesign that to make actually fun to fight against.
I have no idea if some of the ability related stuff here will work, but a good part of it will, hopefully as a whole.
continuation of the thread continues below.

 

[Autismo]

if you know his name, then you know his name, uses an assortment of mobilities to his advantage, more or so based off of the single instance where he charges up a flying kick drop and does dragon ball Z sounds.
he also gets uber on rage, just to clarify.

because of koishi I thought of taking the more iconic character of touhou, which I'm surprised nobody before decided to suggest long before, then again I decided to, that's all there is to it.

Flandre here is meant to be a straight up bullet hell hale ability wise, compared to any hale on the server this hale this hale (if she works) would probably cause some sort of overstimulation, I watched a lunatic run and got inspired to make a hale like this.
probably won't work, still fun to think about on the other hand.

A rocket jumping hale that's based off of the ever-so popular jump_academy2 map, initial phase is where he takes reduced damage and slightly lags behind if you can't rocket jump well enough, phase 2 is where shit hits the fan and he's able to spam abilities to all hells.
not a friendly hale for begineers, period.

A joke hale, a hale made by a sticky jumper for sticky jumpers, and probably the most horrific to get randomly because of how the hale's structured.
when I mean insanely low health I mean only 10k hp with max players, add the two revives reds get and you've got yourself probably the hardest hale to both play and win with (despite having full knockback and airblast resistance that is)

these are all the colours you can possibly get as the hale, the 10+ players passive ability does cause the additional summon to be a different colour.
yes this hale looks awful, it's a bad joke.

download link to pretty much everything listed here, I'm probably done making hale stuff.

 

[Kruphixx]

This is clearly a very well-made thread but personally I don't think any of the bosses need any major changes, nor does anything new need to be added for now.

Only changes I kinda agree with are for Painis and Ass Pancakes, Painis was supposed to get the shovel throw (without the teleport part) but that never happened and I don't think people would even care about it. Ass Pancakes probably just needs a removal since there are already a few bosses like him.

 

[h4zy]

Bro is cooking

 

[Ham]

I actually like most of these. My only issue is with the Soldier Robot's Tesla Coil spell. That thing can mess stuff up pretty easily

 

[Memez Jr.]

View attachment 34912
if you know his name, then you know his name, uses an assortment of mobilities to his advantage, more or so based off of the single instance where he charges up a flying kick drop and does dragon ball Z sounds.
he also gets uber on rage, just to clarify.
View attachment 34913
because of koishi I thought of taking the more iconic character of touhou, which I'm surprised nobody before decided to suggest long before, then again I decided to, that's all there is to it.
View attachment 34914
Flandre here is meant to be a straight up bullet hell hale ability wise, compared to any hale on the server this hale this hale (if she works) would probably cause some sort of overstimulation, I watched a lunatic run and got inspired to make a hale like this.
probably won't work, still fun to think about on the other hand.
View attachment 34915
A rocket jumping hale that's based off of the ever-so popular jump_academy2 map, initial phase is where he takes reduced damage and slightly lags behind if you can't rocket jump well enough, phase 2 is where shit hits the fan and he's able to spam abilities to all hells.
not a friendly hale for begineers, period.
View attachment 34916
A joke hale, a hale made by a sticky jumper for sticky jumpers, and probably the most horrific to get randomly because of how the hale's structured.
when I mean insanely low health I mean only 10k hp with max players, add the two revives reds get and you've got yourself probably the hardest hale to both play and win with (despite having full knockback and airblast resistance that is)
View attachment 34917
these are all the colours you can possibly get as the hale, the 10+ players passive ability does cause the additional summon to be a different colour.
yes this hale looks awful, it's a bad joke.

download link to pretty much everything listed here, I'm probably done making hale stuff.

this is so goated, big fan of chick jacket (model is meh) and i would love to see koishi return, all these other hales are also really great. ninja spy by itself is really bland so it needs that rework, supporter of handsome rogue too
As of right now though we dont need much, let the people take their time with the new update so they wont be too overwhelmed, rn only updates that would work would be small stat ones for ronald, shadow thief etc.

 

[ToastUnderABox]

Hi,
Reading through this post I gathered an overall opinion of mine:

1. Rework Section;

I like the rework ideas for Ninja Spy and Demopan, however unlike Ninja Spy who gets quickfix effect on rage Demopan will be still vulnerable to knockback (pyro, explosions, sentries). If we are to add no stun on rage to bosses maybe we should consider at least a stun affecting sentry guns.

Painis Cupcake was indeed discussed within a discord server. The "already you know why" doesn't tell the average player much.
Ignoring that, we have a quick boss with fast jump cooldown who may not need an addtional teleport ability. So I suggest to making it a medium-long range damage option which works like medic's crossbow shot, my recommendation for the speed of the projectile being 60% faster of a normal rocket. It costs less - 15% per use, is on 20 second cooldown. It could act as a sniping tool against few classes. The damage is yet to be discussed.

The changes recommended to Ass pancakes are fine to me, yet like I said before I suggest adding a stun to sentries only.

I suppose Handsome rogue could use a minion to his aid, although I think he does well by himself. I still am concerned about all bosses having minions being able to use RTD.

Beepman's rework benefits both the boss and red players. His pads and platforms enable fun interactions for both teams, so that's why you recommend a strong rage. This rework would make this boss a menace he has never been before.

I am not positive about the replacement, but I guess Hotline Sniper is just one of those average bosses you play once and forget about them. Chick Jacket's instant directional movement is cancer to get used to but allows crazy stunts. This boss is a definition of glass cannon.
Overall I would wait for poll votes on these.

2. New hales;

The first three you mentioned aka Medizard, Soldine and Koishi are okay so is Duck. How many instant teleport charges do they get per rage?

I've got to mention we're still waiting for rewrite to be added so some of these bosses may not work until that happens first.

Reimu Hakurei would be great if Hakurei Shrine map was added back. Jokes aside she could be a replacement for Koishi if she doesn't get in.

I am against overcomplicated mess that is Flandre Scarlet, maybe she would be great for 10x server. I am not going to lie if that could work it'd be still a complete chaos to play as or against her.

And lastly but not least jump academy bosses. Maybe there was a reason why people voted to have Hardware removed and even Major Crits Jr. The stalling playstyle these two recommend is just mind-breaking.
I know the last one is supposed to be a joke, but I did not expect you to add a second horrible joke to it. I am completely against these two being added in any shape or balance.

Overall the post is creative and has mostly good changes to bosses, yet some of them are still unacceptable to me.

 

[Autismo]

2. New hales;

The first three you mentioned aka Medizard, Soldine and Koishi are okay so is Duck. How many instant teleport charges do they get per rage?

koishi gets 2 instant teleports, restricted for a small amount of time (stunned for a small period: 2.0s), reasoning is because her rage is much more impactful ability wise (scrambles everyone's position and meters, causing sentries to spasm).
duck gets 3 instant teleports and barely any stun on teleport (1.0s) because that's all he gets, plus uber, not even a sentry stun.

I am against overcomplicated mess that is Flandre Scarlet, maybe she would be great for 10x server. I am not going to lie if that could work it'd be still a complete chaos to play as or against her.

I could suggest a other version which is just the 100% rage (her shooting orbs from her position for a long period) as her rage and having the turret orb as a reload ability that costs virtually the same rage I've suggested, those two abilities aren't used for any mentionable hale, I will say the shooting orbs ability works, can confirm, but the turret one is up in the air and I'd probably have to ask the couple of people who probably know better than me to see if it does work, if not then the meteor shower could work as a replacement since it's got something that can work in the same vein

Chick Jacket's instant directional movement is cancer to get used to but allows crazy stunts. This boss is a definition of glass cannon.

this is mostly for the ground movement, he can instantly move directionally without delay on the ground, it's not something like shadow thief's or rattleton for example, it's a minor touch up to make him more like you're playing hotline miami gameplay wise, three dimensionally that is.
other thing, you're correct about the glass cannon, the on kill weapon will only last for 4 seconds but is instantly switched to (deploys +75% quicker) and the weapons are insanely high burst damage weapons, that's something I would like to mention about the hale, he's quite quick on the floor as well, scout speed wise.

Ignoring that, we have a quick boss with fast jump cooldown who may not need an addtional teleport ability. So I suggest to making it a medium-long range damage option which works like medic's crossbow shot, my recommendation for the speed of the projectile being 60% faster of a normal rocket. It costs less - 15% per use, is on 20 second cooldown. It could act as a sniping tool against few classes. The damage is yet to be discussed.

a very simple change since there's something that can allow for that, it would've been something I wanted for ronald mcdonald before but since he's getting an update that fills that slot for his lifeloss, I think it would be better to repurpose that for what you've suggested instead, but painis would have to have something like an incredibly reduced blast radius as a result (it shoots rockets, model can be replaced)

And lastly but not least jump academy bosses. Maybe there was a reason why people voted to have Hardware removed and even Major Crits Jr. The stalling playstyle these two recommend is just mind-breaking.
I know the last one is supposed to be a joke, but I did not expect you to add a second horrible joke to it. I am completely against these two being added in any shape or balance.

I do agree with that, but I wouldn't call hardware a stalling hale, hardware was the exact opposite of delaying and was probably the highest aggression hale in rotation for the time that he was available, he was always a hale that was always breathing down your neck, but I already know why he's hated as a hale, generally, major on the other hand is just annoying to both play as and against, he wasn't balance-able as long as he adhered to his design, but this is something that has been discussed thoroughly.
I do think people would enjoy playing against arnold_gaming on the other hand, it's not a hale that's meant to be won with anyways, but I understand why you wouldn't want a hale that has, in comparison to hardware, 100% uptime with his sticky jumper despite the handicaps he's got going for him (he has to kill 3x the player amount, that's a lot of people and I have never won with the other sticky jumping hale, the +30 changes one, when subjected to +2 revives and I am good enough at sticky jumping to say this).

 

[cangas]

This is clearly a very well-made thread but personally I don't think any of the bosses need any major changes, nor does anything new need to be added for now.

Only changes I kinda agree with are for Painis and Ass Pancakes, Painis was supposed to get the shovel throw (without the teleport part) but that never happened and I don't think people would even care about it. Ass Pancakes probably just needs a removal since there are already a few bosses like him.

I havent played in the server for a long time but most of the bosses and items are broken or very bad and i feel like its not that fun to have the amount of bosses we have because its not that many. Yeah we have a lot of bosses but i feel like we need more for more play styles. Some bosses are almost impossible to win as. Even for the servers best players, so i think we need more freaks and some reworks

 

[Kevin]

I havent played in the server for a long time but most of the bosses and items are broken or very bad and i feel like its not that fun to have the amount of bosses we have because its not that many. Yeah we have a lot of bosses but i feel like we need more for more play styles. Some bosses are almost impossible to win as. Even for the servers best players, so i think we need more freaks and some reworks

you havent played for a long time but how are you able to know the current situation? lol

 

[Memez Jr.]

I havent played in the server for a long time but most of the bosses and items are broken or very bad and i feel like its not that fun to have the amount of bosses we have because its not that many. Yeah we have a lot of bosses but i feel like we need more for more play styles. Some bosses are almost impossible to win as. Even for the servers best players, so i think we need more freaks and some reworks

only thing i can agree is reworks, my main problem with the boss list is hooooooowwww mannnyyyy bosses there are that are just copy and paste (example: painis cupcake, piss cakehole, ass pancakes, dic soupcan (sort of), hotline sniper (mincrit gimmick is cool though), mlg sniper, mlg spy, ninja spy). so id prefer if majority of those got replaced with bosses that have way more unique abilities or reworks. Adding more bosses is dumb unless you run out of replacements. If anything we gotta stop thinking about bosses and more on red side's weapons, like give some special stats when you backstab with the YER, spy-cicle, third degree or any weapon that is practically useless and overshadowed by others

 

[cangas]

you havent played for a long time but how are you able to know the current situation? lol

As in i have low playtime on the server, how didnt you understand that this is what I meant

 

[Autismo]

only thing i can agree is reworks, my main problem with the boss list is hooooooowwww mannnyyyy bosses there are that are just copy and paste (example: painis cupcake, piss cakehole, ass pancakes, dic soupcan (sort of), hotline sniper (mincrit gimmick is cool though), mlg sniper, mlg spy, ninja spy). so id prefer if majority of those got replaced with bosses that have way more unique abilities or reworks. Adding more bosses is dumb unless you run out of replacements.

The problem with reworking hales is that, even if I do come off as egocentric, nobody wants to go forward with doing them either by the lack of drive to do so or the overall idea as to how the hale could be made to stand out amongst the roster.
I think outright replacing hales should be seen as the last resort, and instead the incentive should be driven towards adhereing to what the problems are with the hales in question, fixing it potentially by gathering feedback and directing focus to potentially upgrade, rework or rebalance them.

The roster is beginning to get to a stage where suggestions begin to thin out and people will start to lean towards the idea of reworking older hales, fleshing out newer ones via new abilities, buffing or slight reworks.

but if I'm being honest about the reworks, my brain needs higher stimulation, it's been fried from playing versions of ff2 many years ago that spoiled me rotten with some of the most unique stuff I've seen and want to see something in the same vein, which translates to having experienced really good freak fortress 2 gameplay for both red and blue side antics, people can like vanilla but I like chocolate, strawberry and especially mint, not vanilla.

 

[Autismo]

Hello again to this thread, this is minor but more so addressing the rocket jumping one, with the other jumping one being more or less discontinued until I figure something out that actually feels fun or fleshed out, it's really hard to balance a sticky jumping hale whilst making it fun for both parties.
so here's what I'm going forth with for the hale to be fun:

the picture more or less transcribes everything and there's not much else to be said, problem with rocket jumping hales is that they're impossible to get right without screwing something up in the process:

• Being too gimmicky (major crits random spread + slower rocket traveling speed)
• Increased push force (not being 1/1 with rocket jumping, which in turn, turns it into a gimmick type of jumping)
• shallow conception that pisses everyone off (hardware minions being absolutely busted if one understands what they're doing)
• too much damage potential if you're good enough at market gardening (which I haven't addressed but it'll be something like mini crits on garden)
• being unable to combat the hale if they're good enough (this is honestly a problem for most "skill" based hales)

the lifeloss is the crux of the fix plus a few other things that prevent the hale from actually doing things (being subjected to near impossible knockback effects or having too much knockback resistance, the special ability makes it so you have to choose when to expend its usage wisely), and I think the lifeloss (despite copying the rattleton suggestion) would benefit gameplay by being able to completely stomp the hale's chances entirely if the red team has their own key players that can transverse the map well.

 

[cangas]

we are begging for new freaks, please we're bored of the current one and some are very bad

 

[Memez Jr.]

Hello again to this thread, this is minor but more so addressing the rocket jumping one, with the other jumping one being more or less discontinued until I figure something out that actually feels fun or fleshed out, it's really hard to balance a sticky jumping hale whilst making it fun for both parties.
so here's what I'm going forth with for the hale to be fun:
View attachment 36127
the picture more or less transcribes everything and there's not much else to be said, problem with rocket jumping hales is that they're impossible to get right without screwing something up in the process:

• Being too gimmicky (major crits random spread + slower rocket traveling speed)
• Increased push force (not being 1/1 with rocket jumping, which in turn, turns it into a gimmick type of jumping)
• shallow conception that pisses everyone off (hardware minions being absolutely busted if one understands what they're doing)
• too much damage potential if you're good enough at market gardening (which I haven't addressed but it'll be something like mini crits on garden)
• being unable to combat the hale if they're good enough (this is honestly a problem for most "skill" based hales)

the lifeloss is the crux of the fix plus a few other things that prevent the hale from actually doing things (being subjected to near impossible knockback effects or having too much knockback resistance, the special ability makes it so you have to choose when to expend its usage wisely), and I think the lifeloss (despite copying the rattleton suggestion) would benefit gameplay by being able to completely stomp the hale's chances entirely if the red team has their own key players that can transverse the map well.

As cangas said, it's getting really bland and boring. Honestly any new Hale would work as long as it's not stupidly overpowered or has the same boring abilities and gameplay of any other boss. I'm honestly just waiting for reworks and anything that makes every round not the same.

 

[Autismo]

Hello again, here's something I actually cooked up instead of just theory crafting, it's for ronald who's already fine as is, I personally felt there was more potential for him so I just went and did that and this is something I could suggest whenever, the reason as to why not you can read below.

Everything listed here (except the minion ability stuff, that needs testing with other people but is very likely to work) will work and have tested thoroughly, why I'm not suggesting this immediately is for three reasons:

• Minion stuff (aforementioned) needs testing, which I could figure out a better practice to do
• "File size issues" which is the dumbest thing imaginable but is an actual reason now because of one bad apple who I think doesn't even play on the ff2 servers anyways
• already tons of pending ff2 suggestions
• file size again, funny

This was quite fun to make.

Is it over complicated? no, this is actually really simple to play with that any person worth their money would be able to understand, a dice roll lifeloss with an extra button to press (3/5 of the options) isn't that hard, maybe to remember but that's easily figured out by simply just playing the game.

expect more shitty homemade ff2 things in the future, maybe when the file size agenda dies hard.
Necrobump

 

[Memez Jr.]

Hello again, here's something I actually cooked up instead of just theory crafting, it's for ronald who's already fine as is, I personally felt there was more potential for him so I just went and did that and this is something I could suggest whenever, the reason as to why not you can read below.
View attachment 36209
Everything listed here (except the minion ability stuff, that needs testing with other people but is very likely to work) will work and have tested thoroughly, why I'm not suggesting this immediately is for three reasons:

• Minion stuff (aforementioned) needs testing, which I could figure out a better practice to do
• "File size issues" which is the dumbest thing imaginable but is an actual reason now because of one bad apple who I think doesn't even play on the ff2 servers anyways
• already tons of pending ff2 suggestions
• file size again, funny

This was quite fun to make.

Is it over complicated? no, this is actually really simple to play with that any person worth their money would be able to understand, a dice roll lifeloss with an extra button to press (3/5 of the options) isn't that hard, maybe to remember but that's easily figured out by simply just playing the game.

expect more shitty homemade ff2 things in the future, maybe when the file size agenda dies hard.
Necrobump

Everything seems pretty great, but i feel like Donald Corps. will be the most underwhelming and basic from all of them, not a great fan considering they're rather above average minions, and the rage for it just seems useless now considering majority of players are overhealed, have razorback/shield or dead ringer, i doubt anyone would use it unless it'd be a sentry spot. Laser would just be the only thing the hale would use

 

[Autismo]

i feel like Donald Corps. will be the most underwhelming and basic from all of them,

I could try giving the laser ability to the minions as well, problem being is how the server might cope with it or if it would work at all, that's just about everything I'd give to these minions since dealing with all of that stuff does sound like hell and dealing with +3 to +6 additional super jumps is really hard to make fun for everyone without guttering it, that and I could give the laser to the mini golden ronald as well but again, it sounds like hell.

 

[Autismo]

Short notice, quite shocking to think about but these are some ideas I'd like to throw around since porting the vsh hales here to ff2 would allow for more variety, that and it wouldn't hurt to have more hales (especially when they don't cause FILE SIZE ISSUES for some reason

Honestly it's getting to a point where there's barely any room for heavy/medium rework suggestions, as in most hales are just creatively bland in design and only hold nostalgic merit.

• The rock, it's just the rock, maybe something where you can bump into people on rage but I don't think there's anything like that available
• Human sandvich, no offence to those that like him but this hale's flat and I mean incredibly flat when it comes to choices, maybe something like bouncy sandviches on rage, no clue but I've tested something recently that could make this hale a little more interesting but I just can't figure much.
• mimicer, cloak hale, slow rounds, cloak hale again, spy hale, shit bgm theme, I don't like cloak hales, I've tried to suggest him lose the cloak act but honestly I just want him removed because I hate cloak hales.
• proceeds to suggest shadow thief
• gabe newell, same problem with a lot of other hales, he's no short of a clone with a really and I mean really bland conception that can be barely worked with, maybe take the sandvich idea (bouncy stuff ) and apply that to the money, maybe on kill he does something similar to ronald except it's just 3 or 4 stacks of cash every kill that last forever (until it doesn't, it can get bugged funnily enough) but it ended up being really funny, might actually make gabe unique by chance
• chuck norris, better gentle spy and rock, heavily used by compentent players (not casuals) for the gun plus captain punch-like super jump that deals knockback, only kept "in check" by the health pool which is then out checked by the gun again, very funny and underwhelming to fight against 6 clip gun, could honestly be on the same page as ronald where it takes the joke further but the input just wasn't there.
• Zerstorer, very important hale, has kind of dropped off in the feature creep department but I think with a few changes this hale could shine again, it's a favourite overall for everyone.

tl;dr, shit's at its threshold, the 44 hale and file size limit is really and I mean really keeping the ff2 server here from going to higher levels compared to the other ones I've experienced.
more content means more potential life long users coming back to the server or integrating onto the server as a result, relax the file size bullcrap and allow for more hale slots (10 preferably), most people who play panda are veterans anyways, if it takes one person, who doesn't even revisit mind you, to completely seize up additional contents then that's just great, fantastic even.

thanks for reading what I'll say is probably the last rework part for this thread, there's barely anything left that needs reworking and I think from here all that needs to be done is allowing for more hale slots and more content, which'll never happen so you're only getting reworks, I'm never making a hale removal thread again because of how long it takes to add small trinkets of content (other servers do this in minutes, MINUTES), good day to you and hopefully freak fortress can leave behind its 2014 lack luster design behind.