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Thoughts on the Ghosting rule

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by EvoWarrior5, Aug 30, 2018.

  1. EvoWarrior5

    EvoWarrior5 Well-Known Member
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    Steam:
    I saw the little debate on the ghosting rule I wrote in a recent appeal so I thought I’d come clarify that particular part of the rule and also reflect on it a bit in general.

    Relevant thread: https://www.panda-community.com/threads/unfair-gag.17816/

    Two people were saying that the current rule only applies to VSH and FF2. Current rule:

    "Communicating game-related information while in team spectator or while being dead in VSH or FF2 to give players an advantage is forbidden. If there is only one (group of) player(s) left alive in VSH or FF2 and they are explicitly waiting for the boss to find them, it is okay to tell the boss where they are to avoid wasting time. This is the only exception to this rule."

    I’ll get to the problems I now have with the current wording later, but first of all: some people were under the impression that the “in VSH or FF2” part relates to everything that comes before, but this is not the case. You need to take it as 2 separate things: communicating game-related information while in team spectator of any server is forbidden; and also, if you are dead in VSH or FF2, which are arena game modes where being dead is practically being a spectator, communicating game-related information is also forbidden.

    The fact that this rule is under the “General Rules” category and not the server-specific rules should be a dead giveaway of that, but I understand that the sentence itself sounds ambiguous.


    Ghosting in general can be complicated to judge in certain situations. I’m about to rant a little about it, which might make the admins want to re-evaluate the way it’s seen and handed.

    I remember an episode a long time ago in Class Warfare (another arena mode), where I got killed and said in team chat “there are 2 Pyros in X location”. Madact was present too and said that was ghosting (she didn't punish me though <3). And just going off the rule the way it’s written, that would be correct. I was dead and I gave my team information. By the current definition, that’s ghosting. However, the 2 Pyros were the ones who killed me, and so I already had that information while I was alive. I wasn’t spectating one of my team’s players or sitting in team spectator to find out and relay that information, so it’s not ghosting in the way I intended it in the rule.

    (Unless someone is really slow with typing, admins can easily see either in the killfeed or maybe the console that the person who just gave away a location died only just now. I see no practical issues in allowing a player to say where the person who killed them is located.)


    I’ve said this before and will say it every time: the way I wrote the rules was based on a time span of about a week or two of me thinking about them and the community’s feedback. I encourage the community to keep updating them based on new servers (the original rule only mentions VSH and FF2, but we also have Class Warfare, Prop Hunt, and how many other arena servers?), new situations that make people re-evaluate how a rule should be seen and judged, and other things.

    If I were to re-write the rule now, it might look more like this:

    “You are not allowed to communicate game-related information to players while you are spectating (either via Team Spectator or while spectating players in Arena mode). An exception to this rule is when certain players have been camping for an extended time (or an Engineer's base is the last player or group of players left in VSH/FF2 and they are clearly waiting for the Boss) and giving their position away serves to move the game along.”

    A bit wordy, especially with the VSH/FF2 part added in (perhaps you could leave that out in the General rule but clarify that bit for Arena servers only?). But anyways, by all I can tell right now, this covers the forbidden instances of ghosting but leaves open the possibility of me doing what I did in the Class Warfare example, as I wasn't yet spectating anyone. Of course judgment still comes into play for what “game-related information” is acceptable or not. I have no clue about the example in the appeal that sparked this thread because I never played Jailbreak, and I won’t even bother judging it. This is up to other people who are active in those servers. Anyways, just some thoughts about the rule, how I feel it works, and how clarifying it might be possible.

    Tuning out.
     
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  2. EvoWarrior5

    EvoWarrior5 Well-Known Member
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    Steam:
    Look at that, I just saw problems with the way I re-wrote the rule. I didn't at all define "game-related information" to specify that it's only about game-related information to give players an advantage. Or also like, if someone is new to the game and you're helping them, that's "game-related information" too. But not ghosting. And while it technically gives them an 'advantage', do you really want to forbid people from helping newbies? So many ambiguities, so many potential ways to clarify the rule. I love thinking about those things.
     
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  3. P N N

    P N N Donator
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    So a bit shortened down, you mean there should be a general rule about ghosting aswell as server specific? @EvoWarrior5@EvoWarrior5

    Btw, really nice written!
     
  4. EvoWarrior5

    EvoWarrior5 Well-Known Member
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    Steam:
    Yea the thing is that different servers can lead to different additions or sub-rules, like how ghosting in arena modes (especially VSH) is sometimes necessary so you don't spend 10 minutes for the boss to find an Engineer in a more obscure spot.

    Over the past few years I've seen several appeals come by that involved some debating about a rule, primarily how they were worded and what that means for which cases do or do not fall under it. So if such an appeal comes by it could be that you need to re-evaluate how the rule is written and make it more specific.

    On the other hand it's also not the case that you can add 5 sub-rules for every rule there is, as that would make the thread too large. Or also, I remember that there were certain rules that could be specified in certain ways, but that I felt like adding exceptions to them would make it so that the young playerbase or the players that don't know English as well (or the players that belong to neither of those but are just stupid) could abuse it and say "BUT IT'S AN EXCEPTION". That could also apply to what I've been saying here: if you say that people can give away the position of people who are "camping", there will be those who see someone stand in a corner for 10 seconds and immediately give away their position.

    I don't remember what other rules I had my own thoughts about what exceptions there might be, but for some of those I also chose not to specify them in public to keep it a bit short and because I thought people would misunderstand them and go nuts.
     
  5. Zeprus

    Zeprus Trial Gameserver Admin
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    Steam:
    To make it less wordy I suggest putting
    and then put the exceptions in the related gamemode specific rules.
    I believe reading about VSH and FF2 exceptions can make it harder to grasp if you're not familiar with the gamemodes.
    I changed the wording to arena-like gamemodes because the ghosting rule is generally not enforced on dm-like servers.
     
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  6. Inkticious

    Inkticious Active Member

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    Steam:
    yea, i can understand this and everything, and since you did write the rules about ghosting, would saying something such as ""stop delaying"" at the end of a round where someone has already won something, and choosen to go somewhere, but doesnt go there instead joking around with the, say opearators of it, and making it take more time for the next round, causing a obivous delay to anyone playing the game, would that be against your rules?
     
  7. EvoWarrior5

    EvoWarrior5 Well-Known Member
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    Steam:
    If I only read the exact words you say here, I'd say no. But in the appeal I saw stuff about giving away that someone is "kos" (whatever that means) and at that point I can no longer judge if that's in any way bad or not.
     
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  8. Semicolon backslash

    Semicolon backslash Active Member

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    So here is my take. (Jb wise since I don’t have much experience on pandas other arena servers)

    Imo calling people out for delay shouldn’t be counted as ghosting but I can see where people for it are coming from since your basically announcing at least for red they are kos.

    A compromise (if its not already being done)
    You can only call people out for breaking the jailbreak rules that could lead to admin punishment such as not doing lgka or being an inactive blue. Basically with the exception of ammunition glitching you can’t call out a red for much but you can call out a blue for inactive guard/freekill/delay etc.
     
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  9. Inkticious

    Inkticious Active Member

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    Steam:
    kos = kill on sight, if there is more then one player, if a player that is spectating says someone is delaying, it could be considered ghosting, espiscilly if the operators/blus didnt know, so if someone said it in a case like that, it would be saying "player#3 is kos", which would be ghosting.
    does this help explain it a bit more?
     
  10. El Capitan

    El Capitan Member

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    Steam:
    I second this.

    This is can sometimes be a huge problem i Prophunt. I'd also define ghosting (in ph) as moving to spectating to reveal (to yourself or others) to props position.
     
  11. Zeprus

    Zeprus Trial Gameserver Admin
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    Steam:
    Bumping this. Also can a full copy the thread to suggestions and add a poll to it?
     
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