Completed Staff Voting on Ban Appeals (1 Viewer)

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Cryptic

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#1
I noticed that many ex-Admins are voting in whether or not an appealer should be unbanned, and current Admins are accepting or declining the appeals, solely based on what the ex-Admin wished. This brings up the question of– why? They’re ex-Admins; it’s not within their role or power to be the decision maker in appeals anymore. Leave that up to the current Admins of the server to decide. Current Admins are capable of making that decision on their own with the aid of SourceBans. Ex-Admins, along with other community members, may provide background information, suggestions and other useful insights on appeals; however, they must refrain from voting.

The current forum rule regarding staff voting is as follows:
Only staff can vote on the admin applications. You may choose to say something if you wish so, long as you have an useful insight with the player applying, but you're not allowed to vote.”

I believe this rule ought to be implemented on ban appeals as well. Only current Admins may have the final say if an appeal should be accepted or declined.

If this suggestion is accepted, I would recommend the current rule to be changed to:
Only staff members may vote on admin applications and ban appeals. If you wish, you may choose to say something, as long as it provides useful insight. If your comment is deemed unnecessary, irrelevant or violates said rule, a staff may edit or delete it.”

Thoughts, suggestions?
 

Geronimo

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#2
I can see where you're going with this, but I'm a bit confused. What does 'voting' mean in this situation? Is my comment, and Nim's, in this appeal consider voting?

Current Admins are capable of making that decision on their own with the aid of SourceBans.
What aid? You only see the reason and the amount of times they have been punished. I don't see how that could help an admin who didn't punish the player. Most likely by the time the appeal is out, there would be no logs, SourceBans would be the only thing to go off of.

Ex-Admins, along with other community members, may provide background information, suggestions and other useful insights on appeals; however, they must refrain from voting.
In the end, aren't ex-Admins suggesting anyways? The full admins don't have to give two fucks about what they say.

Only current Admins may have the final say if an appeal should be accepted or declined.
As I sort of already touched on, they pretty much do have the final say. A full admin won't get punished for not taking in the suggestion of an ex-Admin.
 

Cryptic

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#3
I can see where you're going with this, but I'm a bit confused. What does 'voting' mean in this situation? Is my comment, and Nim's, in this appeal consider voting?
Voting, as in stating something along the lines of "I accept/decline."

Nim's comment isn't considered voting; he merely stated his opinion on the situation. You, on the other hand, stated "Again, both Nim and I have agreed to unban and ungag this user. Can a full admin please handle this and remove the punishments?" You crossed the line, when you asked for an Admin to lift the punishments without the insights of current Admins. Tell me, Ger. Why would it be appropriate for an appeal to be accepted, based on two members who aren't part of the staff?

This appeal serves as another example. The player was ungagged, solely based on an ex-Admin's opinion.

What aid? You only see the reason and the amount of times they have been punished. I don't see how that could help an admin who didn't punish the player. Most likely by the time the appeal is out, there would be no logs, SourceBans would be the only thing to go off of.
Exactly, SourceBans is primarily the only thing you need, in terms of punishments set awhile back. Current Admins are capable of analyzing the appealer's records and coming up with a valid conclusion themselves. Nim even said it himself, his memory of back then isn't clear. He's in favor of lifting the punishments due to the time that has passed, which is seen through SourceBans. Your opinion was based on SourceBans, too. Not to mention, there are ex-Admins who are no longer active on the forums. Current Admins don't need them to form a conclusion.

In the end, aren't ex-Admins suggesting anyways? The full admins don't have to give two fucks about what they say.
You weren't suggesting. You were asking an Admin to accept the appeal and lift the punishments, without the say of any current Admin. Husky wasn't suggesting. He wrote "I will give you another shot... accepted." There's a difference between suggesting and forcing for something to occur.

As I sort of already touched on, they pretty much do have the final say. A full admin won't get punished for not taking in the suggestion of an ex-Admin.
They don't have the final say, if they provided no say at all. Again, you asked for the appeal to be accepted, without even taking in consideration of the opinions of current Admins. Husky, too.
 

Pricholas

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#4
Crypt : Ex admins have no authority!
Also Crypt : I am an ex admin, obey this new decree!

Poking fun aside, the idea makes sense, but I'm not sure it's a necessary thing to have written down.
The current roll call of staff should know they have their own decisions to make.
While you cannot discredit anything a previous administrator has to say about an appeal. It does not mean you must agree with them.

More opinions on an appeal the better if you ask me.
 

EvoWarrior5

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#5
Unbanning a player has a lot to do with whether or not you trust them to change their behaviour. The admin(s) that were involved in their punishments have a far clearer view on how the player behaved at the time. Their input as to whether or not the player can be trusted is valuable. Whether they express that in the form of a vote or an opinion makes no difference to me. If the current staff disagree with the ex's decision they can contest it, because they're the ones who still hold authority.

If there had been any issue of people being unbanned too quickly or other admins disagreeing I feel like that would have been noticeable by now. I don't question your concern about it, because it could definitely still happen. The way it's treated now is that once the ex has given their input, a decision is made almost instantly sometimes (or even often, I'm not clear on the figure). The thing is that for these things, you want to have someone who can make the final call. The admin who did the punishment always made most sense there, because they know most about the case. Losing their status does not necessarily change that. The reason it's remained this way is that there is not one person who has the authority to call all the appeals. You could potentially appoint someone to be that person: in the event that someone appeals a punishment from an ex-admin, there is one person who consistently evaluates the case and decides the appeal at the end.
 

Cryptic

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#6
Unbanning a player has a lot to do with whether or not you trust them to change their behaviour. The admin(s) that were involved in their punishments have a far clearer view on how the player behaved at the time. Their input as to whether or not the player can be trusted is valuable. Whether they express that in the form of a vote or an opinion makes no difference to me. If the current staff disagree with the ex's decision they can contest it, because they're the ones who still hold authority.
No doubt, I'm all about hearing other people's inputs and opinions. Voting, in terms of whether or not they believe the appealer deserves another chance, is acceptable too. Where trouble lies for me is when former Admins provide a vote, and they act as if their vote is all that's necessary and current Admins ought to abide by said vote.

If there had been any issue of people being unbanned too quickly or other admins disagreeing I feel like that would have been noticeable by now. I don't question your concern about it, because it could definitely still happen. The way it's treated now is that once the ex has given their input, a decision is made almost instantly sometimes (or even often, I'm not clear on the figure). The thing is that for these things, you want to have someone who can make the final call. The admin who did the punishment always made most sense there, because they know most about the case. Losing their status does not necessarily change that. The reason it's remained this way is that there is not one person who has the authority to call all the appeals. You could potentially appoint someone to be that person: in the event that someone appeals a punishment from an ex-admin, there is one person who consistently evaluates the case and decides the appeal at the end.
When an Admin resigns or is demoted, I believe they hold no sense of authority whatsoever. Sure, they may hold a good reputation and are deemed trustworthy; however, they shouldn't feel entitled to make the final (and only) call. A current Admin ought to be the one, who says "Your appeal is accepted/declined", not a former Admin who is stripped away of their power. After all, a current Admin has the capability to uplift the ban, not them.

Evo, you never fail to disappoint me. I like your idea, in regards to appointing one Full-Admin to evaluate and call the final shot in all ex-Admin cases. Who's an active Full-Admin on the forums, who has a fairly good sense of judgement? @Madact, @Pricholas ..? I'm not in the power to assign, but I'm sure some Full-Admins can come to a consensus and nominate one.
 

Geronimo

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#9
You, on the other hand, stated "Again, both Nim and I have agreed to unban and ungag this user. Can a full admin please handle this and remove the punishments?"
I actually said that while I made my first comment on this thread. I wanted to see what exactly voting is in this case. That cleared things up a bit.

Tell me, Ger. Why would it be appropriate for an appeal to be accepted, based on two members who aren't part of the staff?
Because those two members, who were admins at one point and resigned, were the reason the player was appealing in the first place.

Not to mention, there are ex-Admins who are no longer active on the forums.
Then in that situation, the full Admins can take charge.

When an Admin resigns or is demoted, I believe they hold no sense of authority whatsoever. Sure, they may hold a good reputation and are deemed trustworthy; however, they shouldn't feel entitled to make the final (and only) call. A current Admin ought to be the one, who says "Your appeal is accepted/declined", not a former Admin who is stripped away of their power. After all, a current Admin has the capability to uplift the ban, not them.
I think this rule would make more sense if it just included demoted Admins, even though we barely have those. Ex-Admins who have resigned did it for a reason, while those who were demoted had it forcibly done onto them by the Panda overlord.

Sure, they may hold a good reputation and are deemed trustworthy; however, they shouldn't feel entitled to make the final (and only) call.
They don't. The Husky example that was given wasn't even the final call. He said, in very small words, "(I, but i'm not admin so I can't do anything after this)". Yes, the Admin who handled it listened to him, but that doesn't mean he gave the final call. Also, by all means, Husky doesn't have a good reputation and is not trustworthy. love you husky

A current Admin ought to be the one, who says "Your appeal is accepted/declined", not a former Admin who is stripped away of their power.
I feel like 'stripped' isn't the right word. Stripped seems like it was forced, when in most cases it's willingly. Sorry I just saw that and it bugged me.
 

Not TBotV63

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#10
I don't see how it's an issue. I am sure full admins know that in the end they have the final call after an ex-admin has made their suggestion. But maybe just clarifying that point would make you happy? As for who handles it in the end, whether the affected ex-admin has responded or not, pretty much any full from the server the bans originated from might take it and make a final decision. (And should do so in a timely manner, leaving appeals open for weeks without anyone doing anything about them is just rude and stupid and a way bigger issue imo)

The entire thing would be clearer however if full admins didn't just accept and close or decline and close but also left a short message announcing their decision in the thread. That way it's absolutely clear to everyone viewing it who made the final call.

EDIT: I do see how one could take issue with such wording however (not to call anyone out), after all it's just a recommendation you're giving.
Again, both Nim and I have agreed to unban and ungag this user. Can a full admin please handle this and remove the punishments? Thanks.
 

Brick

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#11
i see where you are coming from, but i also think that ex-admins have a bit of experience in administrating and therefore i think that their opinion is always helpful, if its on the subject matter ofcourse. :)
 

Jim

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#12
Top 10 hypocritical threads.
 

Cryptic

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#13
Top 10 hypocritical threads.
Hypocritical, in what sense? I’m not behaving as though I am entitled over others, nor am I steering things in my direction. It’s a suggestion thread; anything goes, hence why I stated “thoughts, suggestions?”
 

Cryptic

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#14
i see where you are coming from, but i also think that ex-admins have a bit of experience in administrating and therefore i think that their opinion is always helpful, if its on the subject matter ofcourse. :)
I never said I’m against former Admins (or any members) from sharing their insights. By all means, if it’s beneficial information– share! What I oppose is former Admins making the judgment of the appeal by themselves. As Evo suggested, I’d rather have a Full-Admin evaluate and conclude the appeal, rather than just closing it off.
 

Madact

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#15
I did a TLDR on most of the content within here.

We can ask ex admins for their opinions yeah, but overall the last word should be from the admin who is going to undo the punishment. Though I dunno maybe I've been guilty just doing it to get it outta the way lmao.
There's no rules these days. People getting third chances on permanent punishments, users private reporting to admins to avoid publicly reporting said issue because most of us are pushovers, etc. Without a Kevin saying anything or someone with a higher authority to step in full gameserver admins can do as they please. I wouldn't be surprised if people have been undoing with punishments by just appealing to the admin privately.

Anyways I can add that little line in if you want. Don't see any harm in adding it. Thing is there wasn't really any suppose to be a 'voting' system to appeals it kind of just gets managed by whoever. I don't want voting to become some form of norm because then I'd (or anybody else who updates the threads) has to wait at least 2 weeks for other admins to chip in. One full admin can just do it and get it done with.
 

Madact

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#16
This should be sorted now

Completed and closed.
 
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