On applications (1 Viewer)

[EvoWarrior5]

I can't say I've checked to see the actual figure, but it feels like 90% of apps posted get invalidated due to lack of playtime. Clearly just stating the rule isn't enough for people. Should something be added in the template to make it clearer?

Could be:

- Making the rule stronger and adding a link to GameME
- A message at the end in italics stating "Most applications posted are invalidated immediately because the applicant lacks playtime. Please make sure to check yours."

Anything in that spirit. What do you think?

EDIT: although there is a poll, the opinions of admins count for more in the end; keep that in mind

 

[inu]

Remove the requirement entirely and just be vague about it. Playtime is not what makes a good staff member and someone with the qualities to become a potential gameserver admin will know when to apply(that is when they have spent enough time on a server and the community to be able to comfortably moderate it).

When I pick staff on bazaar, their own judgement of posting the application is something I strongly consider. I want people who know they are comfortable enough with the ruleset and the community to begin with, not some stranger who met some arbitrary time frame of using the service.

"- The minimum age for applying is 15. If you are younger than this but are very sure you are mature enough and can do it, you may PM one of our admins and ask for permission to apply."

This is honestly the root of the cause. You are not mature when you are 15 and especially not when you are younger than that. You can not expect these people to exercise enough self-critism to realize that their app is either bad or the conditions(such as being integrated into the community, playtime and such) are just not given.

Raise the age, stop going by playtime and you will have quality applications.

 

[EvoWarrior5]

That rule isn't the best, I know. As I recall, it was mainly added because there were just a fucktonne of 12-year-olds applying at the time, and it was getting annoying having to assess each one of them in a democratic process. I think it was about the same for the playtime rule - just too many people applying with like 4 hours played.

The problem with the rules is that people can fixate on them too much, but the benefit is that you don't even have to think about these cases anymore. Unless someone with a few hours played is really good, in which case they can ask permission.

 

[Madact]

The rule in my opinion needs to be clearer and reduced a little bit.

We start removing the restrictions that are set up it'll end up with a giant application list of (young) people with less than 5 hours playtime applying for admin because they saw the sign that we need admins when they are not established within the community at all. Personally, I don't want to deal with that and neither does Kevin. (I think )

It might be a rubbish way of conditioning people out of the way for a shorter list to shift through but it really helps just getting those that usually get rejected because of low hours / sessions. Most of these people just apply and then leave, what's the point? No effort, I want effort not slackers.

For the age thing...I'm not sure. It's just there for some reason, I actually thought @inu put that one in and @Hawwis put the 72 hour one in? I guess not.

 

[EvoWarrior5]

It was inu's suggestion yes, but I lowered the bar. Ron put in the ones about no bans/mutes for 1.5 months and the playtime, and one more I think? Should be in the first post in that thread. Though Ron may not have come up with all of them.

 

[inu]

That rule isn't the best, I know. As I recall, it was mainly added because there were just a fucktonne of 12-year-olds applying at the time, and it was getting annoying having to assess each one of them in a democratic process. I think it was about the same for the playtime rule - just too many people applying with like 4 hours played.

The problem with the rules is that people can fixate on them too much, but the benefit is that you don't even have to think about these cases anymore. Unless someone with a few hours played is really good, in which case they can ask permission.

Nobody is making anyone think about any case. Concerning shitty apps; There should be zero democracy. If it is bad, it goes in the trash with a coined, copy-paste response because any app deserves as much consideration and thought as the ones put into.

The fact that this community needs any sort of democratic approach to handle any application that is simply too stupid to pass is atrocious enough. The first step to any application should be whether it is worth evaluating or not, and when it is not, a clear decision can be made by a single admin. This is of course assuming that the staff handling applications is qualified to do so, which I am not here to doubt.

You do not need this rule for anything. As mentioned above, a good staff member started as someone with enough self-awareness to know when it is the right time to apply. But thanks to your low age requirement, you are getting applicants who simply have not learned to be self aware yet because they never needed to.

I know this is going to escalate in someone telling me "Oh I am 15 and very mature" and I am sorry but you are not. You still go to school, you do not pay for anything in your life, your money is not earned and you do not need to worry about your public image because you have no job to lose. Self reflection is a skill not needed at this age and therefore none can be expected.

As for @Madact I was always for 18 and above but the constant excuse was "our staff does not need to be as qualified as the one on bazaar" or "we do not need these high standards". I have so many times seen things on the servers where I figured "who the fuck made this guy a admin?" only to find their lazily-written application stating that they are 14 and that they were accepted because they roll with the cool admin gang on that server and are well known.

It is awesome if people integrate with the community on a server but that does not make anyone staff material, unfortunately this appears to be how most apps are decided, give or take.

We start removing the restrictions that are set up it'll end up with a giant application list of (young) people with less than 5 hours playtime applying for admin because they saw the sign that we need admins when they are not established within the community at all. Personally, I don't want to deal with that and neither does Kevin. (I think )

It might be a rubbish way of conditioning people out of the way for a shorter list to shift through but it really helps just getting those that usually get rejected because of low hours / sessions. Most of these people just apply and then leave, what's the point? No effort, I want effort not slackers.

I will gladly volunteer to take charge of apps for a month with this limit removed and show you how easy it is to figure out a shit app and one actually worth reading through. It's a matter of having the backbone and especially one or more executive staff who are allowed and meant to solo-judge apps so nobody has to waste their time on a democratic approach on them.

 

[EvoWarrior5]

I'd love to see that. As I said in steam, these rules seem necessary or at least handy here because there is no such person, and elongated processes are started for things which should be dismissed.

Inu4apps

 

[Danny]

There was a requirement that stated that one had to be active on the forums, but it seems it is long gone, and I am unsure if that counts the applicant's maturity at all.

 

[EvoWarrior5]

The more you see of an applicant, the more you know about their maturity level. Applications are so surface-level that you almost always need to have had other experiences with them. Even if it looks amazing, you still don't know the person well. And most apps don't even look amazing, but just "fine" or "good", in which case you definitely need to know the applicant better.

 

[inu]

I'd love to see that. As I said in steam, these rules seem necessary or at least handy here because there is no such person, and elongated processes are started for things which should be dismissed.

Inu4apps

I'll do it under the premise that nobody is going to come crying because I just rejected the coolest guy on VSH 8)

 

[Madact]

I will say Inu has a point on that's how applications are decided now.

All I want is dedicated admins. Admins who can also at least check out the forums now and then and at least give effort to get to know the server admins (If there is any). Can communicate as well and show respect. It's asking for a lot I know but I really hate lazy admins who get the powers and then just either only use fun commands and go off to do something else without any regards for the players on the server. We currently have some of these types but again I am just a full admin who has bossing around issues that I try to pull myself back from because I have no right to interfere with staff affairs.

And again here I go with 'I miss evo, all hail head admin' I've been content with how things go right now as it's been steady with no power struggles like in the Broski / Mermite / Lukas days.
The thing is I'm not sure if that's you saying to want to come back or want to help. That's something for Kevin to decide on and I don't know where you guys stand.

 

[inu]

I will say Inu has a point on that's how applications are decided now.

All I want is dedicated admins. Admins who can also at least check out the forums now and then and at least give effort to get to know the server admins (If there is any). Can communicate as well and show respect. It's asking for a lot I know but I really hate lazy admins who get the powers and then just either only use fun commands and go off to do something else without any regards for the players on the server. We currently have some of these types but again I am just a full admin who has bossing around issues that I try to pull myself back from because I have no right to interfere with staff affairs.

And again here I go with 'I miss evo, all hail head admin' I've been content with how things go right now as it's been steady with no power struggles like in the Broski / Mermite / Lukas days.
The thing is I'm not sure if that's you saying to want to come back or want to help. That's something for Kevin to decide on and I don't know where you guys stand.

I stand by my word. I'll do apps for a month and you will notice considerably less low quality staff joining if I am invited to do so.

And you will never get dedication out of someone who wanted admin just to be an admin, which applied to 80% of the old staff and I am sure applies to many of the new ones either, as applications are still handled carelessly and on a "friendship" basis. I have no connection with any of the people and could care less who is hot shit on DB or VSH so automatically I have a more considerate approach to every app. It is just a shame that @Kevin never selected a head of apps and appeals who has absolutely no ties to the server(s) and thus is able to make educated and non-biased decisions on these cases.

"-You may not have any bans/mutes/gags for 1.5 months"
This is also a big red flag to me. Why would I expect someone who was not able to follow simple rules in the past to have any interest in following them now besides of now having "the powerz"? People who were previously punished for legit reasons were punished because:
a) They never read the rules, which is a huge DQ for any applicant
b) They did not care, which is a huge DQ for any applicant

Of course the gravity of the punishment and the wrongdoing need to be assessed as well, but this basically gives people a chance who highly likely only want to become an admin to:
a) Be "immune" to the rules
b) For the glory
c) Because they want to be the one in charge

All three points are the exact opposite of a dedicated a good staff member so this rule should really be looked at. Besides, 1.5 months is a very short timeframe. People do not 180° in that sort of time.

 

[inu]

Wait so is this about applications or elections for some kind of president? Cause it's starting to sound like some kind of elections.

This is about a serious topic that should be treated as such. If you have nothing useful to contribute, do not try to contribute at all.

 

[Madact]

I apologize for going off topic a little bit. Since I started out admining when Evo was in charge(Staff wise) the idea of someone with balls offering help sounds delightful to me but to others it won't and in some form of way I see why. You've only recently come back...To offer help and show concern when people don't know Inu is a little difficult. But it's just an idea he's thrown out there and it's up to Kevin to take it or leave it.

I'm up for making it clearer for now. I wanted to bring up a new admin template for ideas but I'm not up for it at the moment. I'll leave this here for now. Might continue on more if more people bring in more points to discuss.

 

[Cammy]

Considering in recent times I've had people asking me "How much is admin on this server" because I punished them for failing in Jailbreak.

The playtime requirement is a huge bridge for most of those players as they are not willing to put the time into the server without being able to abuse the shit out of the powers they would otherwise pay to get.

 

[NicNac]

I think that a GameMe-Link can be added to the rule, it would be kinda a reward for those people who actually take the effort to check the "How to apply" topic out. I bet that nearly all of the creators of the invalid apps didnt checked out the "How to apply" thread anyways.

About the other rules since everyone seems to talk about them, too:

The minimum age for applying is 15. If you are younger than this but are very sure you are mature enough and can do it, you may PM one of our admins and ask for permission to apply.

Age districtions are always pretty tough... In my eyes there is no age where you can say everyone is mature. It always depends on the person. There are people who are 14 and as mature as someone who is 20, or someone who is 18 is still like a child. I think that the minimum age should be a bit higher (16-18) and everyone younger should get the permission of an Admin. This would cause that the Admins can already sort out inmature people in age-classes where there is a higher chance of them being not mature. The Admins should also know the player before giving him permission. This ofcourse doesn't mean that everyone applying and being old enough is mature enough, its still a thing you would need to find out then.

You need to have a good amount of playtime on our servers (minimum of 72 hours on each server you apply for; more if you only apply for 1 server).

I don't think that this rule is unimportant, if you want to be Admin on a server, you should know the server, how the mode works, the rules, some people and so on. People with maybe a few hours playtime usually don't do so.
Maybe it could be a bit less required playtime, yes, or the Admins could give permissions again if they know the player well and know that he/she knows the rules and would be suitable.
And... I never heard that you need more then 72 hours playtime if you only apply for ONE server, I think that last part of the rule is wrong, or?

Applications that we find out have copied from other applications, whether it be from this forum or another, will be automatically marked invalid without discussion. This includes literal copying as well as an exact copy with a few changes.

Agreed. Shows that the player putted no effort in his application and that he is not really suitable for the spot. Just answer with a copy-paste message.

You may not have any bans/mutes/gags for 1.5 months

Like inu, I find this lenght way to short. If a player got a ban/gag/mute he didnt followed the rules, means he didnt read the rules or doesnt care about them. This is also not Admin-potentual, means it should be declined. And like Inu i also think that people dont change in 1.5 months...


That's just my input on this, this is just my opinion, if you have a different one that is fine, too.

 

[EvoWarrior5]

I think that a GameMe-Link can be added to the rule, it would be kinda a reward for those people who actually take the effort to check the "How to apply" topic out. I bet that nearly all of the creators of the invalid apps didnt checked out the "How to apply" thread anyways.

What? Are you sure you've looked at any of the apps lately? How can they use the template if they didn't check the how to?

 

[NicNac]

What? Are you sure you've looked at any of the apps lately? How can they use the template if they didn't check the how to?

Hmm, my fault then. Still impressive to see then, that so many still do not follow the rules then...