dm_duel rules change (2 Viewers)

[Hisu]

Didixo, well, let's take ubercharge solution, for example. What does it do? 8 seconds of invulnerability with 40s interval, so essentially it allows you to somewhat disrupt the pwnage for 8 seconds each 48 seconds, at best. 1/6 of the time, the enemy still do whatever they want, no matter what you do, so, even at best, you can counter 16.6% of the bombardment (actually less). In my book, that spells temporary solution.
Next, you suggest taking a heavy to mow the arena. Even at best, you'll manage to kill one or two or the enemies before dying, and they return to the battlefield three seconds after death. So, even if the bombardment cannot continue without the complete set of spammers (which it actually can), you disrupt it for three seconds tops. Time needed to position yourself over the enemy gate is about 30 seconds. 10% disruption. Temporary.
!rtd. I don't know the chances for overkill rtds, so let's say the chances are even. There are 35 effects, among which 5 are overkill (godmode, instakill, crits, toxic, scary bullets), they last for 20 seconds and there is 120 second interval between two rtds. Effectively, this allows for 20/7/120=2.3% disruption. Worse than temporary.
Now, let's take nade spamming. Grenade launcher fires 1 projectile per 0.6s; when you stand near the locker, you don't have to care about reload, so you deliver about 50 damage each 0.6 seconds (about 83.3 damage/second) to an area about two blast radii wide (enemy gates), effectively harming the disruption for ~41hp per second. As your attack intervals and enemy attack intervals are matched, you kill approximately one of them each 200/41=~5 seconds. When there are six bombardiers, it means you take them all out in 30 seconds, while they need 3*6=18 seconds to respawn in full numbers, which makes it 30/18=~66.6% effective at disruption.

Totals are as following:
1. !rtd is 2.3% effective at disruption
2. Class counter is 10% effective
3. Ubercharge is 16.6% effective and needs at least two players to perform, so it's actually 16.6/2=8.3%
4. Nade spam is 66.6% effective

Humans don't like success rates below 50%, so the only permanent solution — solution the enemy cannot shrug off as minor — is spam.

 

[Noodl]

Maths is nice and all, but percentages and theories have about 0% realism or accuracy outside generalising results, given the confounding variables and other such events that happen each second.

>One of them gets back stabbed
>You get killed by a crit or headshot while spamming
>They get an overkill RTD
>3+ of your team get overkills in a row.

You get the idea.

I think the primary thing you're failing to notice is that you generally have around 9 other players that are continuously running out every 3 seconds as you said. I'm pretty sure that when you kill them via heavy, über or RTD, the rest of your team, or at least some players are there to rush out with you and kill the others.

The staggering part for me is, this is Team Fortress 2. Therefore single handed solutions don't really exist much, and if that's the way you're looking to play the game, then it's wrong. That's not the approach to the game. If you could single handedly clear a group of organised spam, then 'game balance' would not even exist minimally.

It seems that the double standards are incredible in this thread.

Just to throw a spanner into the metaphorical cogs of your spam scheme, they don't all respawn and charge in sync every time, and the rest of their team is also there to keep killing/dying.

If you can't kill them. Take a different approach. Stand on the top of the map and throw stickies down, DR spy with a normal knife or YER, throw Hunstman headshots at them, dodge them with BFB, or the most obvious solution that doesn't really fail, use a Kritzkrieg and kill them from anywhere, be it above them, the windows or the spawn door.

The point is, allowing one of the key rules of Duel to be broken to alleviate or ameliorate a moment in time where your team is being decimated, is not correct, especially given the other times you've asked for the means to stop it.

I think the vote speaks for itself anyway.

Any of the solutions I've given in this post or the previous one, along with support from the rest of your team should easily be enough to end the alleged 'all destroying bombardment', unless you lack the skill to do so. And yes, I am aware that skill is sometimes ineffective against spam, which is how W+M1s function, so don't try and resurrect that counterargument.

Finally, regarding RTD solution, sure it may be a low chance, but instead of a low 2.something, when you DO get instant kills, you kill all of them. Resulting in theoretical 100% disruption... For 3 seconds apparently. Which is no different from gradual killing via spam. I don't refute that player skill is minimised by sheer number of players, but I'm relatively certain that if we dumped Evo in this situation on Duel, while being backed by the entire team as usual, he'd have very little trouble eradicating the problem at hand.

 

[Hisu]

>I'm pretty sure that when you kill them via heavy, über or RTD, the rest of your team, or at least some players are there to rush out with you and kill the others.
>if we dumped Evo in this situation on Duel, while being backed by the entire team
This situation only happens when there is no one to back you up. If there is, it doesn't.
Read as: if your team were organizable, there would be no bombardment.
Read as: availability of means for countering the situation automatically prevent the situation from happening. Therefore, if the situation is not prevented, then there are no means for countering it.
So, when we're dealing with bombardment, we have to assume no one will ever help you and you have no other choice but to somehow counter five or more players all by yourself, continuously, for extended periods of time (which invalidates rare overkills). And again, I'm not asking to add some imbalanced feature to use. Game already allows for a way to deal with spam. I'm not even asking to rule against that sort of behaviour. I'm only asking to let the dominated fight fire with fire.

And yes, I'm aware of that, given you're not camped at the moment, you possibly can eventually goad some of the spammers into changing their target and attacking you, but it simply won't do, because the situation itself isn't random and therefore requires an appropriate reliable counter.

 

[Noodl]

All the solutions I gave were for countering a fully fledged spam attack.

Given the 10 other players with you, short respawn times etc, I'm finding it very hard to see the validity in what you're saying on such a magnitude that it really invalidates all of my suggestions.

 

[Hisu]

Given the 10 other players with you, short respawn times etc, I'm finding it very hard to see the validity in what you're saying on such a magnitude that it really invalidates all of my suggestions.

Yes. Given the 10 other players are with me. Not five idling and five derping around, feeding points to the enemy.
I can only repeat that if there were others players with me, there would be no such problem as bombardment. The enemy simply couldn't've pull it off if my team were at least somewhat stacked. And it's a very, VERY big if.

 

[Didixo]

Yes. Given the 10 other players are with me. Not five idling and five derping around, feeding points to the enemy.
I can only repeat that if there were others players with me, there would be no such problem as bombardment. The enemy simply couldn't've pull it off if my team were at least somewhat stacked. And it's a very, VERY big if.

Guess what, if you go as heavy to the roof while the 5 other guys "derping around" a.k.a DISTRACTING them you can easily kill them. They start focusing on you after 2 or 3 times? GUESS WHAT? THE DERPING PLAYERS HAVE A CHANCE TO KILL THEM BECAUSE NOW YOU ARE THE DISTRACTION SO IT'S LIKE A PLAN B! That's the magic of Team Fortress 2.
If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.

 

[Hisu]

Guess what, if you go as heavy to the roof while the 5 other guys "derping around" a.k.a DISTRACTING them you can easily kill them.

Yes, one or two of them, before catching three nades in the face. And it's when you get them unawares; next time they'll expect you and look up from time to time, so you won't get a chance. Plan or not, if numbers are against you, you can't win conventionally.

 

[Didixo]

Yes, one or two of them, before catching three nades in the face. And it's when you get them unawares; next time they'll expect you and look up from time to time, so you won't get a chance. Plan or not, if numbers are against you, you can't win conventionally.

Oh look, you didn't even bother to read my whole message.

 

[Hisu]

Oh look, you didn't even bother to read my whole message.

As, it seems, you didn't bother to read mine.
I'm perfectly aware it is theoretically possible to organize your team against bombardment.
But.
First, it's not always possible. Bombardment, on the other hand, is.
Second, it's not as easy as doing the bombardment, which is unfair: a viable solution must be as easy to make or replicate as the problem.

In other words, "round up your team and go on counteroffensive" would work, in some fantasy world where everyone does everything right and luck's on your side. But this is reality, where people are more likely to join up in bombardment, not in countering it.