Pending VSH buff demoknight (1 Viewer)

Give demoman with shields 100% crits?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 85.7%
  • No

    Votes: 2 14.3%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .
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Don

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#1
So in most VSH servers demoknight actually has crits on his grenade launcher or primary (what so ever). But on this server he just has mini crits, and this is not really fair for him, infact soldier is more overpowered than him, and in most servers demoman is the most played, but on this server its soldier because there is no advantage in playing demoman expect for using his sticky launcher.

So overall we want demoman to have crits. Feel free to submit your ideas in the chat

Sorry for my english, this thread was writen in a haste
Support me: Don
 
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EvoWarrior5

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#2
Might be an idea to add a poll. Anyone?
 

EvoWarrior5

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#4
I feel like I remember that demoknight was just too easy back in the day when crits were auto-enabled. It did a lot of easy damage since each grenade did 300+. I was not unhappy to see the change. Truth be told, though, I hardly ever still play demoknight now and I'd be intrigued to see what the change will do now. I suppose that if I deem it too powerful I can always open up a new suggestion myself at a later stage.
 

Don

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#5
so i guess its a yes!
 

Kevin

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#6
started, will adjust it a bit later on, gonna ship a separate update.
 

Zeprus

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#7
@Kevin you seem to have forgotten about this one
 

Roar

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#8
I have reset the poll to get updated feedback from the community as the suggestion was made over a year ago these results may not reflect the current view of VSH players. Personally, I like the minicrits on launchers; it means aiming with demoman is much more crucial if you want the big damage & the combination with an Eyelander or it's reskins can be an extremely effective strategy. Poll closes again in 7 days.
 

Riven ✭

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#9
Mind you, this is how Demoman used to be. Ever since the removal of Demoman's Shield crits, he's been primarily played as a full Demoknight with Bootlegger or without Shield at all to spam Stickybombs.

Demoman is the only one who can't properly benefit from taunt crits on his Shield loadout simply because the time it takes to get the taunt done outweighs the shots you're probably gonna hit. Landing shots as Demoman is difficult; I know it sounds ridiculous, but the priority of the game balance should rather revolve around the more professional players - and as a matter of fact, landing nade shots on a Hale that can use right-mouse jumps and airstrafe requires absolute patience, reflexes and talent. The point? 100-150 damage for landing an airshot with a grenade is pathetic.

Now you can compare this to the Soldier and say "But wait, he only deals around 100 damage with air specialist, so why buff Demoman only and not both?", the reason is simple. Demoman, while equipped with the shield, has no escape tools in close combat. When he hits his shots, as rarely as he will get to with a talented Hale avoiding his shots, he will still be run down thanks to the fact that Hale has inbuilt knockback resistance that affects everyone but Soldier and Pyro (due to Rocket Specialist and Airblast).

This is honestly the big issue here alone; Soldier has rocket specialist, a powerful tool that can prevent Hale from moving. Demoman does not. Soldier has a tool to quickly escape from danger, his rocket jumps. Demoman only has grenade jumps that he can only use after waiting a couple of seconds for the nade to blow up. In other words, he'd have to predict that Hale is going to come for him, which is difficult to set up when it takes a jumping Hale around 2-3 seconds to float above your head and kill you.

Due to this, I vote in favor of Crit Nades. I used to main VSH Demoman and my average damage was around 4000-9000 damage against people with a much, much lower skill ceiling. On this server, I believe it would average about 2000-4000 damage because there's just too many people that caught onto how overpowered right mouse jumps are.

Buff it, it's necessary. Soldier has taunt crits and rocket specialist to rely on, Demoknight has a melee weapon and nothing else because minicrit nades do not threaten anyone. As a matter of fact, they can't even stop Hale in midair, that's how weak they are. He will barely be knocked back in a jump and simply smash your head for trying. Crit nades would fix this because the overall knockback is mightier, the damage is far more rewarding for the effort he puts into the job and considering that he trades his Stickybomb launcher which deals an average damage of 4000 damage in just 1 stickytrap for it, I believe that's a fair trade-off. Take it from someone who used to main it - I'd rather use Stickybombs now because they're that awful. The effort and the stress I go through just to land a grenade does just not outweigh the 100-150 damage the game spits at me.
 
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#10
Gonna be honest here;
Demoman (using pipe only) is a VERY awkward class to play. The fact that its hard to get the hale airbone'd without a dropped grenade or the Loose Cannon kills can make one wonder if they should even go demo in the first place (with the exception of demoknight ofc) and thus slowly kill of the population of demos playing. I know minicrit grenades exist,but imho,they are not enough.
Have you ever tried killing a hale with only pipes (think 60% of a total of 20 shots missed,aka 12) and youd get about 800-1200 damage and i think its also not enough.
Im for giving demömän the critpipes back. #hopesfordemoman
 

Heather

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#11
I really wonder if Mini crits not being enough damage is the problem or if Demoknight being far too good is, I say this cuz honestly I see demoknights every round, it's an extreme solid playstyle which may be why pipes look horrible by comparison
But I think from me, i'd personally like to see full crit pipes
 

Riven ✭

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#12
I really wonder if Mini crits not being enough damage is the problem or if Demoknight being far too good is, I say this cuz honestly I see demoknights every round, it's an extreme solid playstyle which may be why pipes look horrible by comparison
But I think from me, i'd personally like to see full crit pipes
It's the latter. Demoknight used to be nearly unplayed because the trade off was terrible, until Grenade Launcher got ruined through overly careless balancing and ended up being completely useless.
It's not that Demoknight is too good, in fact the only buff it ever got was the movement speed bonus from bootlegger/ali baba which made it more tolerable to play with. Another thing that heavily forced Demoknight into the meta was the debuff you get after losing your shield - this wasn't always the case. Losing your shield as Demoman has always been a heavy death flag, but now it also slows you for an absurdly long time after losing it.

And guess what, that isn't even all. Not only did they make it so losing the shield makes you a pretty free kill, they also made it so switching between melee and primary is ridiculously slow which renders you unable to swap between close range melee attacks and mid range shots at free will. This one happened on behalf of the TF team because they thought that Demomen aren't punished enough for using non-bottle weapons, so they made all twohanders equip and unequip slower.

So overall, it's not just Minicrits. It's everything - but we can fix this by reverting the grenade launcher nerf. It'll take ages before Grenade Demo is good again, but crit nades would be a good start.
 

Roar

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#13
Poll is closed, results speak clearly. @Kevin papi when you can could you give Demoman with shield 100% crits on VSH please.
 

Je Hooft

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#14
Can we also address how the eyelander is the only good melee weapon for demoman? It's the only weapon that allows you to permanently have more health than one of Hale's hits which makes it really strong, it also heals 15 hp per hit, you become faster per hit and you have a longer melee range. Zatoichi has like what, 30 HP on hit? No speed boost, no permanent health bonus (only overheal)... It's basically a downgrade from the eyelander. Bottle? Wack. Persuader? Wack. Pain Train is exactly the same as bottle, scotsman's skullcutter makes you too slow. Wow! Claidheamh Mor gives you half a second more charge time, even though Hale probably already killed your shield. And don't even get me started on the joke of a weapon that we call the Ullapool Caber.
So yeah, even if we don't get a grenade-friendly meta, at least put some variety into demoknight?
Rant over
 

Roar

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#15
Can we also address how the eyelander is the only good melee weapon for demoman? It's the only weapon that allows you to permanently have more health than one of Hale's hits which makes it really strong, it also heals 15 hp per hit, you become faster per hit and you have a longer melee range. Zatoichi has like what, 30 HP on hit? No speed boost, no permanent health bonus (only overheal)... It's basically a downgrade from the eyelander. Bottle? Wack. Persuader? Wack. Pain Train is exactly the same as bottle, scotsman's skullcutter makes you too slow. Wow! Claidheamh Mor gives you half a second more charge time, even though Hale probably already killed your shield. And don't even get me started on the joke of a weapon that we call the Ullapool Caber.
So yeah, even if we don't get a grenade-friendly meta, at least put some variety into demoknight?
Rant over
An accepted suggestion thread is not exactly an appropriate place to rant about something (sort of) unrelated. I know you made this thread about changes to VSH but it is far more likely we will just revert back to crits for every grenade launcher, instead of adding multiple different changes to all melee weapons, as it requires a lot less work. I guess I'm locking the thread from here.
 
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