Completed Simple Rule Suggestion for Trade (1 Viewer)

[Magglet]

Hey there fellow traders

Simple rule suggestion. Add a "No Scam Accusations without proof being submitted to forums via report"
Sorry I am not the best with how rules should be written and if someone with a better understanding of how rules can be written to look more professional then please do.

The context to why I think the rule should be added.
It seems that every day I login and someone is accusing someone else of scamming because a trade didn't go the way they wanted or they assume a price different to what is in their mind for a items value it's immediately a scam and spamming in chat to ruin that users chance of another trade is a perfectly fair thing to do.
Wondering if my theory was true I have looked into some of the people claiming scam and spoken to them privately and found on countless occasions that it isn't a scam and its lack of understanding in spells/parts or rarity of item. Classic example being specific skins.

I am SICK to death of people just instantly hoping onto the "scammer" wagon to destroy someones reputation on the server for no reason other than petiteness.
Rule suggestion open to hearing some thoughts as to why it wouldn't be a good idea.

Tagging Trade admins (Unsure if some of you are trade admins or I am mixing it up apologies if you aren't)

@ZeroPC @Hedgehog @Hera @Mikey

lemme know if I missed someone.

 

[Chae]

I find the rule suggestion kind of a headache to try to enforce/make a rule from it. Especially for those semi-regulars/ people joining just to trade, I guess you can ask "Do you have any evidence?", but I would assume most people would usually have the trade window closed by then would not have taken screenshot or alternative those trying to negotiate over the mic and may not have ended up what they wanted ( and thus not have recorded a demo beforehand) and then someone claiming someone "scammed them". I know of at least one instant within the last month where someone purposefully blocked someone for not offering exactly what they were looking for in their item when attempting to sell it so they just blocked the person trying to make an offer. I mean it's nitpicky and all, but generally I also see the server as sort of mid-tier in trading, I didn't see the said person blocking badmouth that person or vice versa the person blocked saying not to trade with the person that blocked them ( the exact opposite as they were trying to get that person to unblock them so they can negotiate). I could see the rule be enforce especially through the mic though, since I've seen situations where people say someone's a scammer on mic or purposefully overtake someone when they're attempting to advertise ( so they end up just sticking with chat binds).

In that sense I could see how the rule could help, as people that do join and want to trade and may have not gotten into a good negotiation phase or experience with someone, may purposefully be malice towards that person and urge others not to trade with said person. It does put a sour taste on someone people's mouth especially when they join the trade server and possibly try to trade/ advertise what they are possibly buying/selling. Perhaps players still struggle with the idea of a bad trade/item valuing in general, if people are saying things such as; claiming "xxx is a scammer" or "Don't trade with xxx" then that's just being spiteful and selfish in a sense as that's just defamation of character to some degree ( especially if it's repeated and targeted towards a certain person).

If anything if there was a legitimate scam, the only thing I could say for the said person scammed is to gather evidence and report it on forums ( if an admin isn't on and the trade is being discussed out loud/ knowledge of the trade occurring) , though I would urge people doing that to also make a report on SteamRep as well since that way if they do ultimately do end up getting marked as a reported scammer they would be auto banned by sourcebans and if they joined the trade server an incident would be evaded.

 

[Hera]

Hey there fellow traders

Simple rule suggestion. Add a "No Scam Accusations without proof being submitted to forums via report"
Sorry I am not the best with how rules should be written and if someone with a better understanding of how rules can be written to look more professional then please do.

The context to why I think the rule should be added.
It seems that every day I login and someone is accusing someone else of scamming because a trade didn't go the way they wanted or they assume a price different to what is in their mind for a items value it's immediately a scam and spamming in chat to ruin that users chance of another trade is a perfectly fair thing to do.
Wondering if my theory was true I have looked into some of the people claiming scam and spoken to them privately and found on countless occasions that it isn't a scam and its lack of understanding in spells/parts or rarity of item. Classic example being specific skins.

I am SICK to death of people just instantly hoping onto the "scammer" wagon to destroy someones reputation on the server for no reason other than petiteness.
Rule suggestion open to hearing some thoughts as to why it wouldn't be a good idea.

Tagging Trade admins (Unsure if some of you are trade admins or I am mixing it up apologies if you aren't)

@ZeroPC @Hedgehog @Hera @Mikey

lemme know if I missed someone.

I love that idea this happens all the time and when I ask them to stop they do not listen and there is not much I can do because at this point it is just banter until it gets to the escalated level of toxicity there is no punishment to correlate to this behavior! Good idea

 

[Magglet]

Just to address the idea of "it's a headache to enforce".

I am not suggesting we immediately slam on a gag if they even hint at the possibility of a scam. Obviously this rule would have to come with some leaniancy. It is more aimed at the users who use the "scam" term as a weapon to target players they have fallen out with.

If you are a regular trader and someone is trying something fishy I always screenshot before hinting that I am not falling for a scam. I appreciate not all players do this but if a player is genuinely a scammer after a few trades they are bound to be picked up by a regular player who does this.

I can currently only see the a major positive of reducing toxicity around the trading scene.

I do appreciate Chae's concern with enforcement and the gathering of evidence but you not adding the rule isn't a solution to difficulty in evidence grabbing. If you can't back up what you are saying then it shouldn't be said like it is fact.

 

[Hedgehog]

@ZeroPC @Hedgehog @Hera @Mikey

@thebishcrazy

 

[EvoWarrior5]

I could have sworn that this was already a rule.. If we had it in the past I don't see why it would have been removed; if we never had it then I probably have it in my mind because there was a discussion about it a long time ago, which may have been accepted but never implemented, or just declined. I see it as common sense that people shouldn't go defaming others without cause.

 

[EvoWarrior5]

Look at that, I found it: https://www.panda-community.com/threads/trade-rule-additions.16223/

As I thought, it was a declined suggestion on the basis of "this is kinda already a rule because it's common sense and falls under the general rules". I'm surprised to see it only got 1 reply though. It's up to the current Trade community whether they would like to make the rule explicit and as part of the Trade-specific rules. I don't think it's a bad idea, but I'm also not sure if there's a lot of benefit in it, since players who would excessively defame someone for "not giving me the trade I wanted" probably wouldn't be deterred by a rule that they very likely didn't even read, or understand if they did. Main benefit might be to shut them up quicker by having a specific rule to point at, but even then they're almost certainly still going to argue just as hard about why the other person was definitely scamming them.

Anyways, I'll leave it to you guys

 

[Magglet]

Could someone add a vote? Seems the best way to do it.

 

[Madact]

@ZeroPC @Hedgehog @Mikey @thebishcrazy
Please give your feedback.

Adding a poll now for this.

 

[Hedgehog]

I appreciate with what mag and chae are saying,

I have experienced multiple times of players accusing other players of scamming or attempted scam, and yes, majority of the time trade is a mid-tier trading server which traders try to develop into higher tier traders. But I agree, it can ruin someone's reputation of trading when someone calls someone out for being a scammer. Everytime I encountered a situation like this my first reaction is to ask "what is going on?" and then ask if they "have any evidence of the trade?", and like @Chae said majority of the players "would usually have the trade window closed by then would not have taken screenshot" which is true, and as I've said before, no evidence, no punishment I can't do anything about it.

However, I understand where chae is coming from with "it's a headache to enforce" but as @Magglet said, the rule will have to come with leniency, and if they're calling someone a scammer to purposely target someone, especially a regular, for example the other day a regular joined, started advertising some things, and one guy shouted on mic "he's a scammer do not trade with him, he's a scammer" and other people joined on the "scammer wagon" and targeted the trader. Then a gag/mute would be ideal to put in place. But maybe we should start looking at peoples BP.tf's rep? The other day, someone pointed out in chat that this guy has -14 negative reps on backpack.tf, I had a little snoop, and they where all more or less recent, all saying "festive/festivized scam" (with evidence attached) "false cash trader". Maybe this should be looked at. So something like -10 negative reps, and depending when they were all reported, (i'd say something between now and 6months back) should be a perm ban for "scammer". I think this could be useful, in a case to reduce the amount of scams attempted/made on trade.

So I agree with a rule like this, to be put in place, it may take sometime for people to get used to but as @Hera said it will reduce the escalated chance of toxicity, it is unfair for these traders that want to start trading, learn the value of each item, but then get shot down in a trade server because they "misvalued" an item, then get shit talked on. But like I said, no evidence, no punish. But if they constantly target a player, I think they should be punished.

 

[ZeroPC]

Apologies for my inactivity. Basically what Hedgehog said.

No evidence, no punish.
However, if a player is constantly accused when its abundantly clear that they aren't a scammer, then I would say it's alright to punish (mainly cause it's rude or annoying).

 

[Madact]

I'm assuming this is still a wanted ruleset.

So something like -10 negative reps, and depending when they were all reported, (i'd say something between now and 6months back) should be a perm ban for "scammer". I think this could be useful, in a case to reduce the amount of scams attempted/made on trade.

I don't believe we'll be doing that. Best to leave that sort of stuff with steamrep as we don't consider backpack.tf rating system a confirmed scammer. But out of curiosity do these people provide proof when rating or do they just rate with a small comment?




Now is this going to be a general rule or a trade server only rule? It seems the most I've read in here are problems that happen on trade servers only as it destroys the 'rep' of a player trying to trade.

I'm just tagging you guys back into this to finish this suggestion off. Also over the months if anything has changed.

@Magglet @ZeroPC @Hedgehog @thebishcrazy @Hera
@Brendon since you're the newest trade trial I'd like to hear from you about this. Have you experienced this while on the server?

 

[Magglet]

Bp.tf does require evidence to have a negative trust rating.

As the others have said I still think it should be a rule its common for players to do this due to lack of mental strength or resilience in trading and attempt to ruin someones opportunities in a server to make themselves feel better. It is very frustrating for experienced traders who don't want to be called a scammer because they don't offer full bp.tf on a 8 key crap pile of an unusual to then have a 15 year old screaming scammer and now no one trades with you.

 

[Madact]

Here is a sample of it being server specific

#25 – EU & US Trade:

• Accusing players of being a scammer with no valid proof is not allowed
If they have scammed you please report your findings with evidence to https://steamrep.com/ . If the evidence is valid they will be marked as a scammer and then banned off panda community automatically.

If the above isn't what you guys have in mind, I've made a sample general rules one:

2) Communication rules:

i) Defaming others as scammers
Attempting to frame someone as a scammer when you have no valid proof of this scam taking place is forbidden. If you wish to report someone for being a scammer, take your evidence and post a report on https://steamrep.com/. If this report is accepted, they will be automatically banned on panda community.


I'm open to critics. If I've made a spelling mistake or grammar mistake let me know!

@Magglet Since you made the suggestion, which one do you believe we should go for?

Also those that it concerns @ZeroPC @Mikey @Brendon @Chae

 

[Magglet]

I personally think the first one is better.

 

[Chae]

In my opinion I’m leaning more towards the 2nd option. Primarily as it falls under the communication rule which encapsulate all the Gameserver rather than specifically under trade as the niece use of /trade is used sparingly. If it does end up just being added to only the trade server list of rules, I’d still personally classified it as disruptive behavior depending on the circumstances if it occurred on other server ( and probably overtalking as well on Jailbreak).

I’d say in the past the one instant I can recall it resulted in an argument and retaliation for the slander of a player trying to trade/ advertise which ultimately ended in insults and he/she/they said being thrown around. To avoid all those steps with this rule for if it was to manifest on the server is a welcome addition as much as it can be enforced.

 

[Madact]

ZeroPC and Brendon also agreed that the second option was the better choice.

Should I word the second option more like the first @Magglet ? Is that why you liked the first one?

 

[Madact]

Sorry for the delay

Important - Gameserver Rules - 31/07/2023

Following this message you will find Panda Community’s Code of Conduct. All players must adhere to this at all times. Failure to adhere to these rules will result in sanction. Attempting to evade any punishment will result in further action. You may appeal any punishment given here...

www.panda-community.com

All sorted. I do see possible issues coming with this as admins might need to start looking at evidence of possible scams which may present it's own issues but let's see how it goes.