Saxton Hale is weak !!!! (1 Viewer)

Kira7000

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Hi, who can I talk about changing statistics on the Saxton Hale server? The fact is that Saxton is very weak, so weak that if you go in and look at the server, then the percentage of victories of very players over Saxton is huge when Saxton wins super rarely. I love the Saxton Hale server and really want to fix it with you. I believe that Hale should have more health and damage. Now any of the Saxtons (Sniper, Waginer, Demoman, etc.) cause very little damage, which sometimes does not even allow to kill a soldier or pyro. Moreover, the range of attack is extremely small. I really want the server to be good and affordable. I would even like to solve this problem for Donat for the sake of justice on the server. Is it possible? Who can I discuss this with?
 

Redspike

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I don't know where you find the team win statistics but I can imagine that the ratio might be skewed because sometimes hale goes afk and that's an instant win for red. (I haven't played VSH in a long time don't know if this is still a problem on the server)

To the people rating funny; because of the nature of the gamemode any changes to hale-health will be a huge balance-change, the discussion on this is worth having and hale-players should find it in their interest to give their 2 cents :)
 

Teddi

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So poeple nowadays complain about the range of Hale being too short? :pepe:
 

EvoWarrior5

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I could write a gigantic post about why VSH as a gamemode is inherently difficult to balance for many reasons. To keep it short it just depends on many factors, including how good the players are compared to how good the Hale is, but especially also what map is picked. And since smaller, campy maps like military_area and barn_night or sometimes volcanic are played often, that already makes it difficult for Hale. Under normal circumstances if you get average or a bit above average with playing Hale it becomes pretty easy on a lot of maps (not the campy maps!), but just a lot of players don't really reach that level. If we were to buff Hale even a little bit more, the above average players would start having a very easy time. This way, there's still a lot of reason to strive to get better.

Yes I know that balancing is still an issue, but it's just sooo difficult to balance any further than it is already, and that's not even beginning to get into the "how"s and "who"s of balancing. It's just not an issue worth spending that enormous amount of time and effort on all things considered.

But I understand your viewpoint and thanks for the suggestion.

EDIT: actually, there are some threads on this forum that are being strongly considered and are maybe even already on the "to do" list that already will really help Hale, such as class limits for Sniper and Pyro. Check them out if you have the chance!
 
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Redspike

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I believe hale balancing is very conceivable with good statistical basis, if hlxstats could provide the winratios for different teams in regard to what player, what map, what hale etc that statistical-data could be compiled and used as a basis for balancing, the thing is afaik hlxstats doesn't provide that information. (if it does please let me know where I can find it, maybe I'm just blind) If there indeed is no statistics to be found online I would personally love to take part in gathering data for that on my own - projects like that are fun and it might even get me back into the gamemode.
 

Kira7000

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I read your answers.
If we talk about balance, I played Hale 3 years ago and I remember the exact formula of HP Hale, it was something like (number of players) * 1500. That is, on average, Hale always had 30,000+ hp. Nobody asks to edit classes, this balance is really impossible to achieve, but when on your server 24+ players for the Hale run like a cushion for whipping and he can do nothing?
In addition, the class of doctors gained incredible success, not because the class is unbalanced, but because
1) Hale has little HP
2) Hale deals, according to preliminary calculations, God forbid 150 points of damage per hit
Do you understand? The soldier, Heavy, demoman, and even the medic Hale often kills with 3 hits !!!!!!
At least I also remember that the Hale damage was in the region of 260-280 units, so as not to kill some of the treasures under the super heal, and to kill Heavy with two blows.
As for the balance that needs to be fixed. Right now there are servers in the search engine that use the old formula for calculating HP, while the percentage of victories there is stable in half.
And one more question to answer. What is the interest from the Saxton Hale server if Hale always dies and is always weak? Face off with team damage? When I played on Hale’s ever-crowded servers 3 years ago, defeating Hale was a challenge and she was pleasing to the players. I assure you that if Hale continues to be so weak, the players will not have any challenge and they will disperse.
If the administration does not believe in this situation, let them try to win Hale on their server when there are 24+ people in the game. Now, in such situations, the Hales are hiding in the corners to kill from around the corner or at least kill someone by jumping with ridicule when there are 22+ people
I think a strong and powerful hale, even unbalanced, will make the game better. Challenges never got in the way, and Hale was terrified and forced to try again and again.
 

Falkì

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Saxton Hale is not weak at all, it's just that there are many players who go afk or suicide or don't want to learn how to play him.
As example there are some regulars who always play as Hale, even if most of them are not "amazingly good" they win 70% of the times.

The maps are mostly a problem to Hale.
As example in dustshowdown Hale always has a hard time with 12 snipers, even for good players [ This is hell without class limits on snipers ].
In small and closed maps Hale has a hard time with Pyros and Engineers [ Some sentry spots just keep Hale in a corner in mid-air and can't move at all even with rage, that is broken on some maps ].

At least Hale can easily get out of those situations if he gives high priorities on the classes who give him bigger problems.

2) Hale deals, according to preliminary calculations, God forbid 150 points of damage per hit
Actually he deals around 200 dmg per hit.
 
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Roar

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I think it's worth replying at least something here given my history with VSH. I agree with OP that Hale doesn't seem to win very often and can be difficult, especially for new players who are fairly clueless about how to play. However there are some things written here that I really disagree with:

I believe that Hale should have more health and damage. Now any of the Saxtons (Sniper, Waginer, Demoman, etc.) cause very little damage, which sometimes does not even allow to kill a soldier or pyro.

Hale's HP is scaled to number of players on the server and I believe 26k HP as the max we can have on #05 is perfectly fine. You probably played on a server which had 32 slots and was populated a lot, so it would make sense that you saw Hale with 30k+ HP. All Hales deal base 202 dmg per hit, meaning any class with base 150 HP or higher can survive a hit IF overhealed by a medic (Soldier, Pyro, Demo, Heavy and Medic [even Engi using Gunslinger can survive 1 hit if overhealed]).

Moreover, the range of attack is extremely small.

I am not sure how you can really believe this? All bosses start with melee range of the weapon they use + 1 Eyelander, meaning the attack range is higher than any melee weapon equippable by the Mercs team, because of this, HHH Jr. has the range of 2x Eyelander because he uses it as a weapon too.

However, like I already said, it does seem like Hale is not powerful enough but from my perspective, the Red team is actually too powerful. Instead of buffing the Hale, I believe nerfing Mercs is more viable as there are some strategies which can be used to always deal big damage regardless of the Hale's HP or damage output (unlimited Snipers, 2025dmg goomba stomp etc). Yes, maps are a problem too but the only thing we can do about this is to suggest (or create if you are cool enough) new maps for the server here on forums, I have a few ideas for maps I'd like to see in the VSH rotation so I guess I will create a thread in the coming days.
 
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Magglet

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Yes buff hale, make it easier for VSH regulars to absoultely whip the server :) while your at it remove any fun map that reds stand a chance on, and make it so hales range is even crazier it currently is. While your at it lets add some damage and more utility to pyros, Make airblasts stronger :> Lots of fun.
 

Kira7000

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Yes buff hale, make it easier for VSH regulars to absoultely whip the server :) while your at it remove any fun map that reds stand a chance on, and make it so hales range is even crazier it currently is. While your at it lets add some damage and more utility to pyros, Make airblasts stronger :> Lots of fun.
I do not understand your sarcasm. I'd love to see you win so easily for Hale on your # 5 server with 22+ people. I am sure that this is now an incredibly difficult task even for those who know how to play Hales. Yesterday I played on the map, where Hale did not win even once, although regular players on your server also played for him. multifactoriality is constantly introduced. Only if we talk about this, then who said that changing the cards will solve the problem that on your server the Hale cannot kill heavy under treatment, and also on your # 5 server no one plays for the engineers, since you just won’t have time to take the damage at the time of beating Hale.
Besides this, what's the point of Saxton, which is not a challenge? Which is just a damage stuffing toy !?)
Saxton is BOSS sure that strengthening it even 2 times will make the game more interesting for everyone, and not vice versa.
Honestly, from the respondents, someone recently played on server # 5?
 

Kira7000

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""
I am not sure how you can really believe this? All bosses start with melee range of the weapon they use + 1 Eyelander, meaning the attack range is higher than any melee weapon equippable by the Mercs team, because of this, HHH Jr. has the range of 2x Eyelander because he uses it as a weapon too.

However, like I already said, it does seem like Hale is not powerful enough but from my perspective, the Red team is actually too powerful. Instead of buffing the Hale, I believe nerfing Mercs is more viable as there are some strategies which can be used to always deal big damage regardless of the Hale's HP or damage output (unlimited Snipers, 2025dmg goomba stomp etc). Yes, maps are a problem too but the only thing we can do about this is to suggest (or create if you are cool enough) new maps for the server here on forums, I have a few ideas for maps I'd like to see in the VSH rotation so I guess I will create a thread in the coming days. ""


Right now there are servers on which Hale's HP is much larger, but at the same time he wins and loses, it all depends on the skill of the Hale. I understand perfectly how Hale's HP is calculated and I assure him that it is not enough to win 50 to 50 depending on the skill. I also said that even 200 damage is not enough.
Even if we move away from the arguments about balance, who said that there should be a balance? As for me, it is so permissible that Hale will be unbalanced, as this will allow players to fight with BOSS, and not a weakling stuffing points. An excellent indicator, if 2-3 people stand afk Hale will still die 70% of cases. Many here argue about the balance, but I could collect statistics on how often Hale loses, since I'm just from server # 5.
Hale can be stronger than the team, this will make the team work according to plan and together and will return interest. And now no one is thinking about anything, everyone is just looking for Hale and hitting him until they turn blue without a drop of strategy and team play.
I beg you, everyone who talks about balance, go in and try to win on the Hale at the time of maximum server load
 

EvoWarrior5

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Honestly, from the respondents, someone recently played on server # 5?

Yes. Recently I've had different names on steam, you may have seen Kawamatsu the Kappa, Denjiro, or Kozuki Oden playing on the server.

I know what you're saying, I have seen some maps where Hale barely won at all. But if we buff Hale so that Hale can win better on those maps, suddenly 80% of the other maps will become the exact opposite. And as I've stated, I do support suggestions on this forum about class limits which will already help.
 
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Roar

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Honestly, from the respondents, someone recently played on server # 5?

Aside from Redspike and Teddi, every player who has responded here is pretty active recently on the server. I implore you to research some of these things before making blind statements - not to mention I have seen each of these players, plus more regulars who probably won't respond here, win as Hale with 22 players. Unfortunately you haven't linked your Steam account to your forum profile so I can't see just how much you have played recently in comparison to the people replying. Honestly this thread feels to me like you played a few rounds on VSH as Hale and couldn't win, so you think it's "unfair", when in reality, the majority of #05 players have been around for a long time and are pretty good at the mode by now which can make it hard for newbies.
 

Kira7000

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Aside from Redspike and Teddi, every player who has responded here is pretty active recently on the server. I implore you to research some of these things before making blind statements - not to mention I have seen each of these players, plus more regulars who probably won't respond here, win as Hale with 22 players. Unfortunately you haven't linked your Steam account to your forum profile so I can't see just how much you have played recently in comparison to the people replying. Honestly this thread feels to me like you played a few rounds on VSH as Hale and couldn't win, so you think it's "unfair", when in reality, the majority of #05 players have been around for a long time and are pretty good at the mode by now which can make it hard for newbies.
Lol
I’ll ask without offensive guesses.
I specifically have to collect statistics, how many times have the people in charge here lost on Hale? I already said that I played a few years ago, and then the Hale was stronger not in skills and something else, but in numbers. That is why I am talking only about numbers. The fact that 3-4 nerds can win on the Hale, and the remaining 80% get afk because there is no chance or die without killing and half the people are the norm for you?) I do not measure skill here, I do not care. I’m not talking about which hale I am, but what kind of blind I have to be in order to see 80% of the hale’s defeats and say that the same players just don’t know how to play.
Yes, and where does what skill do people have on Hale?
Do you like defeating Hale every time?)
Wait for more than 10 matches to wait for that same skill Hale to get some resistance?)
I generally did not expect to see people here who, instead of talking about the problem, came to talk about Hale's skill and to ponder that they themselves can play the VHS for many years to win it.
Thank you for proving the administration that the norm server and no need to be changed, first beginners from TF2 will end and then the old people will get tired))
What kind of challenge to kill a Hale if he loses 80% of the time, I repeat the question that no one wants to answer diligently?)
 

Magglet

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Is it just me that has absolutely no idea what points you are trying to make here. I have read this 4 times now and to me it looks like your asking questions which don't entirely make sense grammatically or just as questions.
From what I can tell, I think you are trying to say that you want to change the difficulty of hale to make it more interesting for hales to play as the general player base. If that is your point then this is an interesting concept, I think you tried to develop your point with suggesting it is not fun to defeat hale every time. Can you please take the time to more carefully word your points.
 

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