Declined Reduce knockback in VSH. Urgently. (1 Viewer)

[Hellboy]

My suggestion is simple. For VSH, reduce the knockback on the hale. Cause as it is now, if the server is full so ~22-23 against you, it's basically impossible to get to people. I've experienced twice in a row now, that it's LITERALLY impossible to get to bases that consists of 3 engineers, 238523478344579 pyros, 2 demomen with stickies, 28 medics, 2 heavies and 5 snipers constantly taking you down. You stand no chance against that many people, and even if you try jumping towards them, snipers will make sure you stay down and even if you manage to get near the base, pyros and sentries will push you away.

It's fucking ridiculous and it's ruining the game. I've never seen anything like it.

I'm not trying to come across as cocky, but as hale I rarely, if ever lose, but with this knockback and 22 people against me, I stand no chance. The only hale that has a chance is vagineer, by stunning people and becoming invincible - immune to knockback from sentries and snipers.

 

[EvoWarrior5]

I don't recall seeing you try to use rage today, though... I kinda doubt that if you'd just used that, that it would still have been impossible to win. Hard, sure, but I don't know about impossible.

The sucky thing about VSH is that the line between a bad team and an incredibly good team is surprisingly thin. Most of the time you have teams that just kind of do their own things, but if they band together in a solid base for once it gets really hard. Even for the good Hales. But this is where their rage ability comes in: many people like me stop using rage at some point because it would be boring otherwise. But when it's against a good team it's your job to figure out how to angle your jumps so that you've got just enough time to disable a crucial section of the base and start picking it apart.

Overall I think it's just part of how the gamemode works. As I said, a lot depends on how good the team is (and how good the Hale is). I don't know if buffing Hale further would help, that might only make it easier for Hale to win in the 80-90% of the times where a team isn't bundling up so well.

EDIT: it's also the map, Volcanic is known for being very easy to make such a base in. Many other maps this isn't the case, though.

 

[PNN]

@Le Captain Pootis u just bad and salty

 

[Hellboy]

I don't recall seeing you try to use rage today, though... I kinda doubt that if you'd just used that, that it would still have been impossible to win. Hard, sure, but I don't know about impossible.

The sucky thing about VSH is that the line between a bad team and an incredibly good team is surprisingly thin. Most of the time you have teams that just kind of do their own things, but if they band together in a solid base for once it gets really hard. Even for the good Hales. But this is where their rage ability comes in: many people like me stop using rage at some point because it would be boring otherwise. But when it's against a good team it's your job to figure out how to angle your jumps so that you've got just enough time to disable a crucial section of the base and start picking it apart.

Overall I think it's just part of how the gamemode works. As I said, a lot depends on how good the team is (and how good the Hale is). I don't know if buffing Hale further would help, that might only make it easier for Hale to win in the 80-90% of the times where a team isn't bundling up so well.

EDIT: it's also the map, Volcanic is known for being very easy to make such a base in. Many other maps this isn't the case, though.

I played weaponsdepot, where I was stuck in water as Christian Brutal Sniper, where I did use rage several times but I was constantly stuck because of pyros, sentries and snipers. I'm shitting you not, it was impossible to get up and I lost like 15K HP while the water was there.

And in Vulcanic, I jumped everytime I could for like 2 minutes trying to get up there, from all kinds of angles, and from the mountainside, but was constantly pushed away by sentries and pyros. And in Vulcanic, I did use rage twice but I got pushed so far away from the sentries, they were beyond my reach. What my point is, the knockback is unnecessarily powerful, I'm not suggesting we remove all knockback ofc, but only nerfing it because as it is right now, if you're against a decent team with a base, it's practically impossible to get to.

 

[PNN]

I played weaponsdepot, where I was stuck in water as Christian Brutal Sniper, where I did use rage several times but I was constantly stuck because of pyros, sentries and snipers. I'm shitting you not, it was impossible to get up and I lost like 15K HP while the water was there.

And in Vulcanic, I jumped everytime I could for like 2 minutes trying to get up there, from all kinds of angles, and from the mountainside, but was constantly pushed away by sentries and pyros. And in Vulcanic, I did use rage twice but I got pushed so far away from the sentries, they were beyond my reach. What my point is, the knockback is unnecessarily powerful, I'm not suggesting we remove all knockback ofc, but only nerfing it because as it is right now, if you're against a decent team with a base, it's practically impossible to get to.

Haha when you were stuck in the water, that was just bs. The knockback was insane

 

[iceviet]

Thats the problem with Christian Burtal sniper actually he has less knockback resist then the others.

 

[chaz]

Hmm.
I agree and disagree.

Yes, the knockback is very significant in VSH. Yes, it might be OP. Yes it reduces the chance of Hale winning...
but...
isn't that the point?

Knockback is in the game for a reason - to knock back Hale so it is harder for Hale to win.
Why would we want to take that out so it is even EASIER for us good hales to win?
Surely we want a challenge...

Most in importantly, in my opinion, there is always a way around it, it is never impossible.

 

[Hellboy]

Hmm.
I agree and disagree.

Yes, the knockback is very significant in VSH. Yes, it might be OP. Yes it reduces the chance of Hale winning...
but...
isn't that the point?

Knockback is in the game for a reason - to knock back Hale so it is harder for Hale to win.
Why would we want to take that out so it is even EASIER for us good hales to win?
Surely we want a challenge...

Most in importantly, in my opinion, there is always a way around it, it is never impossible.

If you witnessed how it was today, a sunday afternoon where everyone were there, all 23 enemies, 3 engineers, 4 snipers, 3 pyros and 3 medics and 10 more players, in the vulcanic map, you'd realise how ridiculously hard it was. I've never given up on being hale before, but I had to today. It was uncomprehensably stupid amounts of knockback that kept me away from them.

And if one of the best VSH players are struggling, and finds it undo-able (if that's a word lmao), there's something that has to be done.

And I agree, there has to be knockback otherwise it would be unfair, but reduce the amounts of knockback - which is the title of this topic - in my opinion, is necerssary. Especially on Christian Brutal Sniper.

 

[chaz]

If you witnessed how it was today, a sunday afternoon where everyone were there, all 23 enemies, 3 engineers, 4 snipers, 3 pyros and 3 medics and 10 more players, in the vulcanic map, you'd realise how ridiculously hard it was. I've never given up on being hale before, but I had to today. It was uncomprehensably stupid amounts of knockback that kept me away from them.

And if one of the best VSH players are struggling, and finds it undo-able (if that's a word lmao), there's something that has to be done.

And I agree, there has to be knockback otherwise it would be unfair, but reduce the amounts of knockback - which is the title of this topic - in my opinion, is necerssary. Especially on Christian Brutal Sniper.

It looks like you are saying this is only a big problem on certain maps like Volcanic. I agree that this is a problem on Volcanic but not enough to have to change anything. You can get a super jump from being in the lava which you can easily use to get into the centre of the “base” and rage. You can even use the weigh down feature that will further guarantee the chance of landing in the base and probably on someone’s head.
Also if you were stuck on the water on weapons depot you can easily jump out on the right side onto the other building right?

I just don’t think this is a big enough issue to change anything.

 

[iceviet]

Did you even use rage in a smart way i mean is okay to use rage i honstely don't care if someone rage to win if he wants to win he can like that.
If you get insult by rage noob you just tell them not to insult ? i mean there is a reason why rage is a think in vsh.

 

[chaz]

Did you even use rage in a smart way i mean is okay to use rage i honstely don't care if someone rage to win if he wants to win he can like that.
If you get insult by rage noob you just tell them not to insult ? i mean there is a reason why rage is a think in vsh.

Yeah never be afraid to rage.

I am one of the rare people that doesn't give a fuck about raging.
Like it's in the gamemode for a reason - why WOULDN'T you use it?
Its meant to make it a bit easier for Hale when it is hard for him to kill a specific group/individual of the enemy team.

(this wasnt aimed at anyone im just saying).

 

[Hellboy]

As I stated in previous posts, I did use rage, but I was continuesly too far away to actually reach them. There was one time when I managed to rage like half of them, but I was still unable to get to them. And this is referring to the vulcanic map. As for weaponsdepot, there was no way in HELL I would've gotten up from there, and everyone there could confirm lmao. And there I did use rage too, Christian Brutal Sniper, and I managed to snipe a few here and there, but it made no difference.

 

[PNN]

Yea I was in the game when this happend. He had no chance comming up from the water and Pootis were never ever that close so he could use rage on us. If he was close enough, 4 snipers on other side of the map would have fucked him up anyways.

I kind of support both sides here. If we reduce the knockback, it will be way to easy for us as hale, which I dont like. Also, for us who only play VSH and who almost never die aka the good players, we can use rage of course. It’s there for a reason, but we are too proud to use it.. And when we always complain about rage-kills, a rage from us is a NO-GO.

 

[iceviet]

Yea I was in the game when this happend. He had no chance comming up from the water and Pootis were never ever that close so he could use rage on us. If he was close enough, 4 snipers on other side of the map would have fucked him up anyways.

I kind of support both sides here. If we reduce the knockback, it will be way to easy for us as hale, which I dont like. Also, for us who only play VSH and who almost never die aka the good players, we can use rage of course. It’s there for a reason, but we are too proud to use it.. And when we always complain about rage-kills, a rage from us is a NO-GO.

I aksed you this did you use smart rage in a good way.
i didn't think you use rage in smart way, You need to use your brain in vsh to a specialy when you play against a good team.
So lets see the situation here.
3 engineers, 4 snipers, 3 pyros and 3 medics and 10 more players, in the vulcanic map,
4 snipers on the other map.
3 engineers
3 pyros
3 medic's

Lets see who is the potential threads here.
4 snipers.
3 engineers.
i hear from pnn that there where 4 snipers on the other side of the map deal with them first.
like in panda showdown if you don't deal with them first your gonna died in the first place.

3 engineers could be a pain if they know what there doing but trying to bait them out of the nest by raging.
Most of the people will run after rage because the panick use that to your advantage.
if you need to rage only for that engi thats okay if you kill the engi the sentry will be destroyed to.


we can use rage of course. It’s there for a reason, but we are too proud to use it.. And when we always complain about rage-kills, a rage from us is a NO-GO. BS if you don't want to use rage where it is for implement don't complain about it be to proud of it ?
i see our top players using rage, if they complain or insult your should should ignore the complain and tell them not to insult.
im not in my prime anymore but i still know how to use my brain when it comes to winning hale.
If you realy want to deal with a good team you should watch danny or evo when there on the server they have perfect knowledge when it comes to shutting down a good team.

 

[Hellboy]

The problem was, in vulcanic, I couldn't even reach the engi-medic-pyro-sniper nest. I tried jumping up from all around the bottom, from the mountain side (there's this cave you can jump from), I tried running up the slope where I was goomba stomped 2 times, and blown into the air by demomen, and just pushed further away. To me, I tried all I could but found it impossible.

And I know the tactics of taking out a team efficiently, and I know I'm not Danny or Evo, or Kushy for that matter, but I've had my fair share of experience, but the fundemental problem with it all was that the knockback was so strong it was practically impossible to reach any player that was standing in the nest. I use rage when it's necerssary, and this was an o-so necerssary point.

I know I'm not /the/ best on VSH, but if one with my experience and playtime, and rank finds it impossible, how does it feel for some of the more casual players? From experience as engineer, with the right spot, with a pyro and a medic next to you, you can basically keep the hale at bay and kill him singlehandedly. I know it's probably possible to take out a nest that strong that I encountered, but for regular players and even skilled players, it's impossible, even with rage. When ~20 players stand up there in vulcanic, it's impossible to rage everyone up there, no matter how close you get.

I feel like I'm just stating the same things over and over again, and this is my argument.

 

[chaz]

The problem was, in vulcanic, I couldn't even reach the engi-medic-pyro-sniper nest. I tried jumping up from all around the bottom, from the mountain side (there's this cave you can jump from), I tried running up the slope where I was goomba stomped 2 times, and blown into the air by demomen, and just pushed further away. To me, I tried all I could but found it impossible.

And I know the tactics of taking out a team efficiently, and I know I'm not Danny or Evo, or Kushy for that matter, but I've had my fair share of experience, but the fundemental problem with it all was that the knockback was so strong it was practically impossible to reach any player that was standing in the nest. I use rage when it's necerssary, and this was an o-so necerssary point.

I know I'm not /the/ best on VSH, but if one with my experience and playtime, and rank finds it impossible, how does it feel for some of the more casual players? From experience as engineer, with the right spot, with a pyro and a medic next to you, you can basically keep the hale at bay and kill him singlehandedly. I know it's probably possible to take out a nest that strong that I encountered, but for regular players and even skilled players, it's impossible, even with rage. When ~20 players stand up there in vulcanic, it's impossible to rage everyone up there, no matter how close you get.

I feel like I'm just stating the same things over and over again, and this is my argument.

One huge part of dealing with this is take out the Engis or snipers before they can setup. Then it can all be avoided.

 

[Hellboy]

One huge part of dealing with this is take out the Engis or snipers before they can setup. Then it can all be avoided.

That's impossible in vulcanic.

 

[Spam Goose]

I agree with the knock back, its a bit ridiculous, but it it is needed. maybe give the bosses more resistance or make snipers have less knock back while target is airborne, but more when they are grounded. Also make pyros' repeatedly air blasts knock back less and if engineer sentry has less ammo, less knock back?

 

[Spam Goose]

I mean I get never being able to get to the nests. On the map (i believe its road to nowhere idr) when they are on the small buildings right next to spawn, if they have 2 engi and 2-3 heavies on amp and dispenser i can never get to them even with the mass speed boost on mr. meeseeks (i only play hatsu and meeseeks) and its just impossible

 

[Hellboy]

This cannot be stressed enough. The knockback on ALL hales is fucking ridiculous, and it's really ruining the experience of being hale. I used to love being the hale, but now it's nothing more than frustration because you're constantly being pushed away by a single heavy with a dispenser.