Completed [JB] HNS rule clarifications (1 Viewer)

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Nergal Nergalton

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After some discussion with Sir Krookadile (special thanks to him for helping me with), I've decided to request two alterations to the rules of Hide and Seek. I will be quoting the original rules to explain why I think they deserve a change:

CHANGE 1:
Prisoners have a minimum time to hide of 1 minute to a max of 2 minutes after cells are opened.
While this is simple to understand, a problem Krook pointed out to me is that if BLUs decide to stay in armory for 2 minutes and, for whatever reason, the cells don't open, technically the BLUs wouldn't be able to seek until 7:00. Not only is this just an overall waste of time, but it gives REDs enough time to pull off round-ending secrets on maps with them, such as Volcano and Jailfort, or even Medics to build up an Ubercharge and allow them to Uber a powerful class such as a Heavy or Soldier (especially dangerous if they found an ammo secret), invade armory, and end the round before BLUs can even seek.

My proposed change to this rule is "Guards have to seek prisoners no later than 8:00." This puts a hard limit on how much time in a round can pass before BLUs have to seek, as I feel waiting until 8:00 to seek is more than enough time. Having to wait until 7:00 is too long.

CHANGE 2:

In the "Miscellaneous" section in the Rules, there is a sub-section of map-specific rules. Alkatraz contains this:
Additionally as a Guard during HNS, you are allowed to camp at the exit area (door) during the hiding 1-2 minute period of time. This is to prevent reds from simply ending the round with no real way for guards to stop it.
I like this rule and don't want to remove it. However, I want to propose adding Jailfort to the list of maps you are allowed to camp the round-ending secret door of during HNS. The map isn't very big, the secret door is right across from the main cell area, and if all the REDs coordinate and manage to break all the breakers fast enough, I do believe it's possible to pull off this secret before the BLUs have a chance to seek, depending on how long they choose to stay in armory.

I am aware two other maps have round-ending secrets, but I chose not to include them for these reasons:
- Mayanjungle: The map is big enough and the items needed for the secret scattered well enough that I don't think even the fastest and most coordinated REDs would be able to get them all in time, and even then, the helicopter takes ages to arrive anyways.
- Volcano: Provided my first rule suggestion above passes, I don't think -- or at the very least believe it would be extremely difficult to pull off -- REDs would be able to get all the ingots and activate the secret in time, also factoring in how long it takes for the door to happen and potentially having a bunch of REDs huddled around the buttons increasing the chances of constant mixups and errors. Alongside that, it would be very hard for BLUs to defend anyways because they have to trek all the way from armory to the secret, and good luck doing that without getting swarmed by REDs if the cells open early enough, particularly if you are a Heavy.
- Bootcamp: I always forgot about this one but Krook has told me this one would also take too long to do in time.
 
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The seeking rule is fine as it is, of why are we making JB less fun and more rule orientated? The secrets being activated while guards are in armory, its just makes the round quick in a sense. Plus for jailfort, just put a single guard in the secret and thats that.
 

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I am aware two other maps have round-ending secrets, but I chose not to include them for these reasons:
- Mayanjungle: The map is big enough and the items needed for the secret scattered well enough that I don't think even the fastest and most coordinated REDs would be able to get them all in time, and even then, the helicopter takes ages to arrive anyways.
- Volcano: Provided my first rule suggestion above passes, I don't think -- or at the very least believe it would be extremely difficult to pull off -- REDs would be able to get all the ingots and activate the secret in time, also factoring in how long it takes for the door to happen and potentially having a bunch of REDs huddled around the buttons increasing the chances of constant mixups and errors. Alongside that, it would be very hard for BLUs to defend anyways because they have to trek all the way from armory to the secret, and good luck doing that without getting swarmed by REDs if the cells open early enough, particularly if you are a Heavy.
- Bootcamp: I always forgot about this one but Krook has told me this one would also take too long to do in time.
I don't like how this is inconsistent. Why is there only one map where blues can camp a round-ending secret, but not the others? I've seen reds pull off every round-ending secret in time, or at least quick enough to where guards can't contest it in time. The LR is hide-n-seek, not "Gathering The Maps Chaos Emeralds ASAP," let blues camp every round-ending secret. It doesn't hurt anyone in that context other than reds who want a free dub.

edit: to add, I think this is part of my idea that if a rule exists it should be as direct and simple as possible without unnecessary extensions. If a rule exists that says "You can camp a round ending secret" it shouldn't follow with "except on maps a b c..." because that shit is confusing and sucks (personal experience)
 
There is already a rule that allows blus to be at a round ending exit during HNS to avoid people escaping, however I think the 8 Minute cap is nice since it avoids delay and avoids LRs like "blus seek at 6"
 
I don't like how this is inconsistent. Why is there only one map where blues can camp a round-ending secret, but not the others? I've seen reds pull off every round-ending secret in time, or at least quick enough to where guards can't contest it in time. The LR is hide-n-seek, not "Gathering The Maps Chaos Emeralds ASAP," let blues camp every round-ending secret. It doesn't hurt anyone in that context other than reds who want a free dub.

edit: to add, I think this is part of my idea that if a rule exists it should be as direct and simple as possible without unnecessary extensions. If a rule exists that says "You can camp a round ending secret" it shouldn't follow with "except on maps a b c..." because that shit is confusing and sucks (personal experience)
This was my original thoughts in the first place and the main thing I wanted to suggest to make it consistent across the game mode as a whole as I didn't understand why it only applied to alkatraz. Making it to apply to HnS as a whole just makes more sense.
 
There is already a rule that allows blus to be at a round ending exit during HNS to avoid people escaping, however I think the 8 Minute cap is nice since it avoids delay and avoids LRs like "blus seek at 6"
There isn't. It's only there for alkatraz. The only actual mention of it in the rules is within the map specific rules for Alkatraz.
 
Hi everyone, so HNS will now have a base "Seek no later than 8:00" rule that cannot be overruled, even with LR adjustments.
However the team is unsatisfied with just jailfort being added to the rules, so a new poll will be done for a rule allowing guards to camp all maps with ending secrets.

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I dont see the point of it personally, the flat 8:00 rule means there is not a single round ending secret you can do in time for guards to start seeking, unnecessary exception and makes the rules muddy.
 
Under the right circumstances some round ending secrets absolutely can be done before seeking time ends. On Alkatraz for example. With a soldier, a medic and a spy. A soldier can go to the medic ammo secret. (takes about 20-30 seconds with good timing.) In the meantime the medic and spy can build uber while breaking the door breakables. Soldier blows up the top sentries. Spy gets ubered and saps lower sentries. Secret done in about a minute flat. Jailfort can be done even faster with just a few scouts. Like on Mayan you have to wait for the heli and get the radio from inside armory but you can get it 80% done before blus can seek. A red can sacrafice themself to get the radio faster. Meaning the heli is on it's way and a blu will essentially just have to sit there the entire round so a spy/scout can't just go out of hiding and end the round. It's absaloutely doable on some maps.
 
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Sorry but 2 mins to hide is overkill. You put the limit on hiding at 1 min, this suggestion would become irrelevant since 1 min you wouldn’t have enough time to do much of any secret
 
What Krook typed are my thoughts exactly. Get a team together and you can do the secrets in less than 1 minute no problem (even Mayan).

That's not why I voted no though. I'm voting no to camp secrets purely because the essence of "hiding" would be eliminated.
It shows a view of where the reds are hiding and it would be a technical "favouritism" if you avoid that red hiding.
Camping heli secret? You can see left and right.
Camping jailfort secret? You can see the cell area with roofs.
I can continue on.

Sure, it takes the fun of HnS away if persons are doing the secret (I'm no exception. I like doing the Mayan secret).
But I rather want the hiding element to be in tact than having blue's camp round ending secrets.

TLDR: you can see where I'm hiding where you camp!
 
What Krook typed are my thoughts exactly. Get a team together and you can do the secrets in less than 1 minute no problem (even Mayan).

That's not why I voted no though. I'm voting no to camp secrets purely because the essence of "hiding" would be eliminated.
It shows a view of where the reds are hiding and it would be a technical "favouritism" if you avoid that red hiding.
Camping heli secret? You can see left and right.
Camping jailfort secret? You can see the cell area with roofs.
I can continue on.

Sure, it takes the fun of HnS away if persons are doing the secret (I'm no exception. I like doing the Mayan secret).
But I rather want the hiding element to be in tact than having blue's camp round ending secrets.

TLDR: you can see where I'm hiding where you camp!
I'd like to counterpoint this. While yes this can be a problem depending on what part of the secret the blus camp. On most maps there is a secluded part of the secret you can camp.
For example, on jailfort you can sit in the "HG room" since hiding behind that door is exploiting regardless so there's no harm done to reds while protecting part of the escape secret.
On bootcamp the small building next to D-Day is completely secluded and houses the main part of the secret.
On Alkatraz while you can see some spots that are somewhat popular. Mainly the room next to box game. and disco. You can't see much else of the map. Still allowing reds some freedom in hiding spots.
On Mayan, while yes you can see left and right the actual view you get is quite minimal and there's still the entirety of the map to hide on.
And on Volcano the tower can be looked out of but there is very little hiding spots in the room it looks out into. Still allowing reds freedom of hiding. I ultimately see allowing camping secrets during hns on all maps to be a change for the better. Since the only secrets I can't see getting reasonably completed within a minute as Volcano and Bootcamp.
 
I can swing either way on this vote... As rarely do I see enough reds coordinate for secrets like this, the main exception is Volcano due to the map being massive, and its almost certain at least 2 reds are gonna try it anyways. But, I'm not opposed to allowing the blus to guard round end secrets. Though I do feel the 8:00 timer would be fine enough.
 
Man forgot I even voted on this before. Didn't want the seeking change, but did want the ability to make HNS actually be about hiding.
Simple yes from me this time around.
I couldn't tell you how many times HNS on Volcano just becomes a race to guard the secret, because it is incredibly easy to gather all the ingots even without coordination.
It pretty much is for me that HNS is just "do the secret" round on Volcano.
It's most prominent for me on Volcano, but yes, other maps should not be excluded either.
 
"Guards cannot seek no later than 8:00, Prisoners have a minimum time of 1 minute to hide after cell doors have opened." Will replace "Prisoners have a minimum time to hide of 1 minute to a max of 2 minutes after cells are opened."

This poll also means that guards will no longer be allowed to camp the Alkatraz secret.

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Will all be added on the first of the month, until then you guys can give feedback on wording or whatever
 
This poll also means that guards will no longer be allowed to camp the Alkatraz secret.

But why? Alkatraz is undoubtably the largest example of HNS just being "do the secret" round.
We voted on whether or not all other maps should also have their secrets be camped or not.
Removing this long standing restriction doesn't seem like what this poll was for, nor what people voted on, but this might just be me.

Edit: Quote from the original proposition;
"
Additionally as a Guard during HNS, you are allowed to camp at the exit area (door) during the hiding 1-2 minute period of time. This is to prevent reds from simply ending the round with no real way for guards to stop it.
I like this rule and don't want to remove it. However, I want to propose adding Jailfort to the list of maps you are allowed to camp the round-ending secret door of during HNS. The map isn't very big, the secret door is right across from the main cell area, and if all the REDs coordinate and manage to break all the breakers fast enough, I do believe it's possible to pull off this secret before the BLUs have a chance to seek, depending on how long they choose to stay in armory."
 
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