Completed [FF2] Market Gardener Damage (1 Viewer)

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UberMedicFully

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Hi,

as many people know, Spys backstab damage has been changed and requires a lot more risk to put out 1.000 damage in one stab.
Soldier in the other hand, takes alot less risk and can escape any situation very easily, unlike Spy on a backstab they cannot cloak nor Stab again for 1 second or more.

Anyway, i am suggesting a nerf for the Market Gardener damage, vote for the possibly damage nerfes.

It's unfair to give a high mobility class that also takes less skill, such high damage output.
 
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The issue is not the soldier market dmg, the real issue imo is how much each boss receive some gets more dmg some gets less, i honestly would balance the dmg on each boss except duo instead of nerfing market.
 
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Idk, it can often be fairly hard to strafe midair around a moving and jumping hale, and I think if wed lower the mg damage any more than it is rn itd be just better to constantly crocket the hale, meaning soldiers would need to rely more on jumping away from hale and just pussying out with constant rocket shooting as their best viable option. While I do agree backstabs are a lot harder to pull off (mainly cause I dont play spy AND main MG soldier in both vsh and ff2), but I do tend to still often miss a lot of mgs on tighter maps. I suppose id still be fine with around 800-900 MG damage, but ive seen the mg damage usually dependant on what boss you're fighting against anyway. On some bosses my mg's only do 800 dmg while on others it does almost 2k damage. But if my market gardens did any less than say 700 dmg id probably be constantly crocketing hale than trying to risk myself with a mg.
 
Heavy does not have much experience with soldier on ff2, however Heavy believes nerfing market garden damage to any figure under 800 to be a grave mistake, as that would place the market gardener damage closer to that of a Goomba (600 dmg) than a backstab (1000 dmg) despite a market garden being far more risky than a Goomba.

Heavy believes having the market gardener deal 900-800 damage is fair as the market gardener shouldn't be the primary source of damage for a soldier as unlike the spy the Soldier has a rocket launcher.
A Soldier can deal 1080 damage in perfect conditions if the soldier uses his entire clip after taunting with the minimum damage being dealt by a clip of crit rockets through splash damage being 576.
A spy on the other hand can only deliver a maximum of 216-486 with a full revolver clip using the passive mini crits or 720 with crits, provided all the bullets hit which is unlikely due to bullet spread with only the first shot guaranteed to shoot straight. The ambassador can greatly increase this damage in theory but in practice the ambassador is burst damage over consistent damage of the revolver, Heavy will return to the concept of burst vs consistent damage later on.

This allows the soldier to deliver more consistent damage than the spy which should the spy hope to compete with the crocket soldier in damage the spy must rely on backstabs. However the ability of the soldier to be able to preform
1.5k-1.2K ensures the class balance is thrown out the window as the soldier can solely rely on market gardens to top score which compared to spy "Soldier . . . takes a lot less risk and can escape any situation very easily".
Heavy believes the 800 damage nerf to be more reasonable as this allows the Soldier to have the option to quickly deal a burst damage of 800 without being left vulnerable during a taunt to obtain crits, whilst simultaneously promoting more variety in rocket launchers as currently the stock rocket launcher and beggar's bazooka is being out shined by rocket launchers which enable greater mobility such as the liberty launcher, air strike and rocket jumper.

Furthermore the nerf to 800 damage will although greatly harm the trolldier sub-class, the mantreads will ensure that the trolldiers still have the greatest mobility and therefore greatest possibility to land more market gardeners and although Heavy does believe trolldier damage will be greatly reduced by the nerf, It is Heavy's opinion that the trolldier sub-class shouldn't have the ability the deal more damage than normal soldiers as the rocket jumper's main penalty is that it deals minimum damage to the freak. So the trolldier should be rightfully outclassed by the other rocket launchers.

In Conclusion Heavy suggests the 800 damage is the best option for the nerf as it allows the market garden to become a form of secondary burst damage for the soldier rather than the primary damage dealer as Heavy believes the rocket launcher should be mightier than the 'spoon', as the rocket launcher should be able to deliver better consistent damage overtime rather than being out damaged by the market gardener overtime. Heavy would like to once more make it clear, Heavy does not play much soldier and so take what Heavy says with great pinch of salt. Heavy would greatly appreciate Soldier mains opinions on the matter of Consistent vs Burst damage argument.

Many Thanks for reading!
 
Heavy does not have much experience with soldier on ff2, however Heavy believes nerfing market garden damage to any figure under 800 to be a grave mistake, as that would place the market gardener damage closer to that of a Goomba (600 dmg) than a backstab (1000 dmg) despite a market garden being far more risky than a Goomba.

Heavy believes having the market gardener deal 900-800 damage is fair as the market gardener shouldn't be the primary source of damage for a soldier as unlike the spy the Soldier has a rocket launcher.
A Soldier can deal 1080 damage in perfect conditions if the soldier uses his entire clip after taunting with the minimum damage being dealt by a clip of crit rockets through splash damage being 576.
A spy on the other hand can only deliver a maximum of 216-486 with a full revolver clip using the passive mini crits or 720 with crits, provided all the bullets hit which is unlikely due to bullet spread with only the first shot guaranteed to shoot straight. The ambassador can greatly increase this damage in theory but in practice the ambassador is burst damage over consistent damage of the revolver, Heavy will return to the concept of burst vs consistent damage later on.

This allows the soldier to deliver more consistent damage than the spy which should the spy hope to compete with the crocket soldier in damage the spy must rely on backstabs. However the ability of the soldier to be able to preform
1.5k-1.2K ensures the class balance is thrown out the window as the soldier can solely rely on market gardens to top score which compared to spy "Soldier . . . takes a lot less risk and can escape any situation very easily".
Heavy believes the 800 damage nerf to be more reasonable as this allows the Soldier to have the option to quickly deal a burst damage of 800 without being left vulnerable during a taunt to obtain crits, whilst simultaneously promoting more variety in rocket launchers as currently the stock rocket launcher and beggar's bazooka is being out shined by rocket launchers which enable greater mobility such as the liberty launcher, air strike and rocket jumper.

Furthermore the nerf to 800 damage will although greatly harm the trolldier sub-class, the mantreads will ensure that the trolldiers still have the greatest mobility and therefore greatest possibility to land more market gardeners and although Heavy does believe trolldier damage will be greatly reduced by the nerf, It is Heavy's opinion that the trolldier sub-class shouldn't have the ability the deal more damage than normal soldiers as the rocket jumper's main penalty is that it deals minimum damage to the freak. So the trolldier should be rightfully outclassed by the other rocket launchers.

In Conclusion Heavy suggests the 800 damage is the best option for the nerf as it allows the market garden to become a form of secondary burst damage for the soldier rather than the primary damage dealer as Heavy believes the rocket launcher should be mightier than the 'spoon', as the rocket launcher should be able to deliver better consistent damage overtime rather than being out damaged by the market gardener overtime. Heavy would like to once more make it clear, Heavy does not play much soldier and so take what Heavy says with great pinch of salt. Heavy would greatly appreciate Soldier mains opinions on the matter of Consistent vs Burst damage argument.

Many Thanks for reading!
Aerial agrees.
 
Now that i think about it, Recommended changes are very low.


Just the effort and risk to get 800 is pointless.


would suggest it to:
1500
1250
1100
 
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My brain kept reading Heavy's comment with the idea that he has put on some reading glasses, looking more sophisticated.

And cuss of him, my idea of having the mg be a static 1000 as well kinda got shunned away, because, well... Rocket jumps will always give more distance than the dead ringer or the big earner, and while the freak can see the soldier coming at times, letting them time their swing with the soldier's landing, it's not always gonna be the case as they are still fighting the entire team most of the time. Such a thing can also be happening to the advantage to the spies

So yeah, thinking of 800 dmg being just enough to merit a strong enough garden.
 
Change the Mantreads instead. Makes no sense it should make even a terrible Soldier half-way decent. If people complain about Soldier's constantly jumping away for free then change that part instead, and learn to look up.
 
Change the Mantreads instead. Makes no sense it should make even a terrible Soldier half-way decent. If people complain about Soldier's constantly jumping away for free then change that part instead, and learn to look up.
No don't.... You're not nerfing em without making em awful...
 
gardener isn't the problem, mantreads being a mega crutch is, being able to freely jump from one area to the next with a singular rocket already makes using them in combination with the gardener completely free of concern since the damage taken from jumping is as nearly as non existent as using the gunboats which requires more user input compared to the treads because of the extra explosive knockback taken.
just make the treads not give damage resistance from jumping and instead make it take +15% damage from jumps so you can't just jump around without a care.
 
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Even though my input is somewhat unnecessary now, considering that the vote is pretty much done, I will be giving it regardless! (16 votes against it lol!)

Anyway, starting off with the first point to make: The Damage Values
The damage values given to us are way too low. I've stressed this before on Discord, I will do so again on this thread.
My point regarding that would be still the same as well. Nerfing Soldier in any of the given values would make him inherently useless. He's already lost as big part of his damage output when Goombas have been utterly nerfed, taking this away from him as well will not only put him in line with the rest of the classes but will also put him in the grave.

The Spy argument
The Spy argument is a bit unfair, since the problem with Spy was de facto that he got massive amounts of damage with little to no person being able to stop him. Especially in combination with weapons such as the Kunai.
This translated the gameplay on FF2 into the following:
>Get backstabbed as Hale
>Lose 3-4k health
>Lose round because you couldn't avoid the Spy
At least with Soldier's nerf in regard to Goombas his damage output is roundabout 1-2k if he hits both. So I must ignore this as a valid point, sorry.


The Good (replies so far)
Change the Mantreads instead. Makes no sense it should make even a terrible Soldier half-way decent. If people complain about Soldier's constantly jumping away for free then change that part instead, and learn to look up.
This pretty much puts it into perspective and would make a decent enough nerf for Soldier's mobility issues.
All in all, I'm fairly against his suggestion… regardless, best of luck matey.
 
I don't think a damage nerf is necessary,the only issue is that some of the bosses recieve more damage.Also yes i do agree that the mantreads are a bit of a problem,but in general,a nerf isn't needed in my opinion.
 
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