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A new pyro thread :-)

Discussion in 'Saxton Hale - 193.192.59.191:27055' started by P N N, Apr 18, 2018.

  1. P N N

    P N N Trial Gameserver Admin
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    Sorry for making a new pyro-thread people, I am just making some suggestions for the server.

    I have a few solutions to maybe make the pyro less good for VSH. Don't know if the FF server got the same issues, if you do have feel free make an opinion about the solutions aswell.

    1.
    We could make the primary weapon for pyro use a 100 metal each airblast. This will not be solved if there is a dispenser of course, but it's not always an engineer there or they sometimes place a amplifier instead. It will make the pyro less good for sure.

    2.
    We can either remove secondary jumps, such as flaregun etc, or just ban these types of weapons. Forcing the pyro to use shotgun or anything else.
    Imo, this is the best solution. On VSH, we have pyro's jumping around where their only goal in life is to push the hale. They instant go grab ammo, then flarejump to hale and repeat.
    Ammo, flarejump, push, repeat.

    3.
    We can make a rule about it. If people like this one, I will with pleasure make a rule about it. Of course will Pootis and Iceviet read it and if they want to, make it with me.
    This will go under the "timewaste rule" that we can't really describe that well. I can also make a rule about that if people would prefer that aswell.

    4.
    Get the pyro classlimit back. Yes, we have been back and forth with this. Only reason we don't have that now is this; the server will crash more often due to Kevin will have to change server, and that server is less good(?).


    I hope something of this is in good taste for the VSH players, aswell as FF players if they have the same issues. This is just something I have been thinking about, there may be better solutions aswell of course.

    And please don't make this to a shitpost. I beg you.

    Kind regards, PNN
     
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  2. Roar

    Roar Trial Gameserver Admin
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    Steam:
    Agree - I think this is a good idea, or at least increase the airblast cost significantly if possible. This would make it more difficult for the pyros to constantly stock up on ammo with the tiny (20 ammo [25 for Degreaser]) cost they have now.

    Agree - This is also the best idea in my opinion. Pyro already has an incredible defense mechanism in the airblast, the ability to jump super far - further than Soldier can rocket jump - combined with the airblast is incredbily overpowered. The weapons could be kept but just removed their VSH-specific effects; meaning only the Detonator can force jump, but still not too far.

    Disagree - I believe it already exists - I've seen both you and Beamer slay Pyros who aren't damaging the Hale, just airblasting and jumping away. So I think there is no need to add one specifically for pyros. But right now, highly skilled Pyros can still deal at least 3000 damage per round so it isn't really timewasting.

    Disagree - In my personal opinion, if any of the above rules are added, there will be no need for a limit on Pyros. Also, I'd much rather play on a slightly annoying more stable server than have it crash more frequently. Other players, regs and newbies, are more likely to stay on the server if it doesn't crash too!
     
  3. Magglet

    Magglet Trial Gameserver Admin
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    I like number 3.
     
  4. ✪ King Syntex

    ✪ King Syntex New Member

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    Steam:
    Number 2 but make it to 50 and just keep on slaying pyro that only airblast getting ammo and starting with only airblasting him again.
     
  5. ✪ King Syntex

    ✪ King Syntex New Member

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    Steam:
    and what roar said sounds good only detonator can jump. Rest remove the special effect :)
     
  6. Le Captain Pootis

    Le Captain Pootis Trial Gameserver Admin
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    Steam:
    no pyro limits we love pyros they are good ! ! !

    Agree with all of the above. We need limitations on pyros, as skilled pyros can literally waste 10 minutes each rounds, ending up pissing off the hale, and everyone spectating. Even if they do damage, it's wasting unnecessarily much time.
     
  7. Matth

    Matth Trial Gameserver Admin
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    Steam:
    In my humble opinion the (1) and the (2) can't coexist. Pyro needs to defend himself.
    Actually he can by using flareguns (flying away) and by using airblasts.
    We could limit the airblasts and keep flareguns, or we could keep the airblasts and ban the flareguns.
    But not both of them, at least in my opinion.
    I'd rather prefer to limit (1), because airblasts increase hale's rage despite of flare guns, and there are pyros who airblast for no reason..
    Still, there are good pyros who airblast hale from raged teammates, and they can't help at all if you set 100 ammo per airblast.

    I totally agree with point (3) and (4). Most of times the problem is not the pyro itself as class, but the amount of them.

    ----

    So I would not touch (2) and (1) actually. I'd start with (3) and (4) and see how it works.


    Good day everybody, btw :)
     
  8. Le Captain Pootis

    Le Captain Pootis Trial Gameserver Admin
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    Steam:
    Perhaps limit the airblast to cost 50 instead of 100? Or even lower, 40? That way you won't be able to push hale away continuesly, atleast without a dispenser.
     
  9. Matth

    Matth Trial Gameserver Admin
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    Steam:
    40 would be better and way more acceptable.
    Still, I confirm what I wrote above: I'd start applying (3) and (4) and see how it goes, if we also need higher cost of airblasts or not.
    But majority decides, if you think it's better we apply everything together, go on ;)
     
  10. Travis

    Travis Trial Gameserver Admin
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    Steam:
    **Giving my personal experience here.**

    Me being new to VSH and having a shit ping (Rip NY-EU connection.) I tried playing soldier and got forced pyro. So I gave it a shot.

    Once the round started I noticed how much mobility the pyro has. He can basically get anywhere he needs at any time, I saw it as a good idea for pyro since he is close range. So after sitting and not knowing what to do, I started to search for the hale alone. I of course found him and thought I was going to die immediately... He jumped at me and I simply just right clicked and my problems were gone. I could completely avoid all danger by combining airblasting, shooting flares, then jumping away to hide. It was ridiculously easy to bully around the hale (which who should be the bully). I could rack up damage/trap him for other players to damage him. I immediately saw an issue with this, pyro is way to easy to play along with very hard to kill. If a new player like me can fight the hale 1 on 1 with him getting no where near me, that is an issue. A few rounds later I was hale and as soon as I got out of spawn I had a pyro throwing me around like a rag doll. I couldn't do anything to stop it.

    Basically, I agree the airblast should be at least 50 ammo per blast, but that alone wouldn't fix it. Many classes have a class limit so why is it so crazy for pyro to have one? Limit pyros and 50 airblast cost would be extremely helpful imo. Pyro is just too strong on his own.

    This is just my suggestion, You can agree or disagree.
     
  11. TBotV63

    TBotV63 Active Member

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    Steam:
    How about reducing airblast pushback? As it seems from what people wrote on the subject, that would reduce the pyro's ability to push around and trap the hale a fair bit.
     
  12. P N N

    P N N Trial Gameserver Admin
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    Of course we can reduce the airblast, but I would say that remove the ability to flarejump is a better choise. The pyro now has two escapes, which are the airblast and the flarejump. We can reduce the airblast, but he still got two ways out of a bad situation. Therefore, I would rather remove flarejumps just because then the pyro can't chase the hale that easy. Also, at the start of the round, on f.eks. Militaryarena as hale, you kinda wanna get to their spawn as fast as possible to try get to the engies, but when all the pyros flarejumps and push you back and they just wait for the engies to build these sentries, it's not possible to play after that.

    And I disagree with airblast cost 40 and not 100, because of this; The pyro can jump around on the map way faster then the hale. It take's the hale 5 to 6 secs to recharge superjump. For pyro it take 1 sec to reload. The pyro can just jump around the map getting those ammopacks.

    Imo, the airblast should ONLY be a quick safety that the pyro can't do too often. This will force the pyro to actually do something with his flames. Not only airblast.


    EDIT: Thanks for making this a good thread people.
     
  13. Tedgrid

    Tedgrid New Member

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    Steam:
    I agree. Only thing is, we shouldn't ban the weapons, they can deal great damage to hale. But you could make a rule about constantly flarejumping and pushing. And a 100 metal for 1 airblast? Seems kinda too much. Make it 55, so you can blast 3 times. If you make it 100 metal for each blast you can't really protect yourself nor others from hale.
     
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  14. Kyl3

    Kyl3 Active Member

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    Steam:
    Here's an idea, like it or not, make flare jumping do more self damage. I'll let you think where you want with this.
     
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  15. Turhral

    Turhral New Member

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    Steam:
    Being a main FF2 player, from my own experience even the pyros are kinda helpless against the boss. Flare-jumping deals quite a lot of damage, not to mention almost every boss can catch up with the pyros (either teleport or a smart super jump) and some have ranged weapons.
    But with VSH, it is a problem indeed. All but the third suggestion sound good:

    (1) Upping the airblast cost to either 40 or 50 (Backburner airblast cost) will make Pyros more aware of their ammo, as 20 per airblast only tickles their ammo.
    (2) Flarejumping should be a high-risk high-reward: Sure you can jump even more than a Soldier, but you barely take any damage from it. Giving it a lot more of self-damage per jump will help, but I don't think that removing it completely is the way to go.
    (4) Limits. Always a good idea to limit such annoying classes in my opinion, especially the offensive trio- Scout, Soldier and Pyro. I agree to it.

    Now, about the third suggestion - adding a rule. No.
    While rules are good to regulate a fun experience for everyone with minimal problems, limiting such a thing as "time-wasting" is just not gonna cut it. In the FF2 server, once it turns into a 1v1, a 2 minute timer starts (unless the boss has around 1k hp or something, dunno.). This timer should be present as well, especially during times when a Pyro is the one last alive (Or a FaN Scunt. Works too). Rule adding will just cause players to be disappointed.
     
  16. Riven ✭

    Riven ✭ New Member

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    Steam:
    Alright, time for me to chime in on this unreasonable "Let's slaughter Pyro because he can actually interact with Hale".

    First of all, I'll begin with deconstructing your arguments, then I'm going to tell you how to effectively counter Pyros:


    I'm gonna assume you mean Ammo, not metal. That's, simple as that, unreasonable. You're disabling the Pyro from helping his team and you're disabling him from airblasting more than once unless he literally doesn't use his primary fire at all. His ammo is just fine, with Flamethrower he's vulnerable and can't airblast into secondary flare jump. With Degreaser, he uses 25 ammo for each airblast and has to be aware of every standing dispenser around himself. 25 Ammo on a 200 Ammo Degreaser, that's 8 airblasts before he runs out. 6-7 because he'll be using his weapon to attack as well most of the time. 8 airblasts are absolutely fine, given how much they gutted the knockback of his weapon if he attempts to brutally run you down and just hold his right mouse button. (besides that you can use rage once in sufficient range of you)

    In another thing, Engis sustain Pyros and Pyros sustain Engis. Engi is easily killed by so much as a weigh down, whereas in areas with low ceilings the Pyro can't even flairjump into action to protect the Engineer from rage, thus all you do is walk up to the sentry, wait for the next best Pyro to try and protect it and then rage him. Common mistake here: Hales run up to the Sentrygun, rage the Sentry as soon as they're in range and then complain that Pyros airblast them away.

    Pyros don't jump in, airblast the crap out of hale and then run away. If you actually encountered that and they got out of that alive, it's the Hales fault, nobody elses. If a Pyro presents himself by flarejumping into you to airblast you, rage him. If multiple Pyros do that, escape and go right after the unprotected Engineers. If there are too many Pyros, lucky you, you have a Rage Dispenser in a hazmat suit just begging to help you out at getting a full Rage bar. Trials and errors, until you understand approximately how far the range of Rage is. Once you do, no Pyro is going to step on your lawn unpunished anymore, thus a learning curve.

    No. That's about as reasonable as banning LCS players for using viable strategies and champions in League of Legends. Blame the game, not the player. Timewaste is an absolutely unclear rule and there is no Pyro on the VSH servers that's so amazing at the game they can't get raged AND abuse airblast to deal no damage. Troll or Talented, pick one of them but not both. If there actually IS a person horrible enough to use their talent just to stall the game out while his dead teammates have to watch him deal 0 damage, you can deal with them. I've never seen that happen before on the server so I don't even perceive this as a problem.

    I won't deconstruct this one because I personally disagree with a lot of classlimits. Here is how it 'should' be:

    Scout: 2
    Soldier: Unlimited
    Pyro: 3
    Demoman: Unlimited
    Engineer: 4
    Heavy: Unlimited
    Sniper: Unlimited
    Spy: 2
    Medic: Unlimited

    Reason:

    Scouts are inherently bad on the lower skill floor. They contribute nothing, and rarely somebody picks Scout up to exploit the high damage of Goomba stomps. Rarely. They waste time, they camp at Sentryguns, they fire pistol potshots and then stay alive as the last player sitting in some isolated Area no person would ever step into.

    Soldier is a generalized class with a variety of items and loadouts to choose from. He fulfills multiple jobs and people should be allowed to play Soldier at any time. He is not overpowered, much against what people try to put in other people's heads, and "Military area Soldiers" is not a good excuse. The higher you set the limit of Soldiers, the harder it gets for each individual Soldier on Military area to jump from Healthkit to Healthkit because multiple of them would have to fight over it and most of them die not being able to grab one.

    Pyros, even if I think they're balanced, can be frustrating to deal with. I disagree that they stall out games, that's the fault of the Hale for spamming right mouse jumps, getting propelled back and then writing 2 page essays about why Pyro sucks. THEY waste time.

    Demoman, equal to Soldier, fulfills multiple jobs ranging from Melee fighter to Stickytrap zoning master. Absolutely fine to keep unlimited.

    Engineer: I personally disagree with an Engineer limit, but agree that for people with a lower understanding of the game mode will feel like an unlimited Engineer team is going to result in "Everyone go to Hakurei Shrine and pick Engineer" extravaganzas. 4 Engineers seems more than reasonable to me due to the fact that weighdown heavily plays in Hale's favorite in combination with right mouse jumps, resulting more than once in Engineers being stomped by a high gravity stomp.

    Heavy is bottom tier at the moment thanks to Hale being far too strong. Unlimited.

    Sniper has got to have one of the easiest ways to combat him. You pay attention to where the shot is coming from, then abandon your current fight to pick them off first. If you don't do that, you DESERVE being gunned down by 20 Snipers. cough cough dustshowdown Hales.

    Spy, Copy paste Scout's explanation for Spy because Ambassador Spies are a frustrating sight.

    Medic unlimited because nobody plays him anyway and at full capacity they're not a threat either unless organized. Have fun organizing a Medic chain consisting of 20 people, you DESERVE a victory if your team is that wonderfully coordinated.


    This is the part where I explain how to combat Pyros and explain better solutions to existing problems:

    Pyro, simple as that, has a massive learning curve in VSH. He's not a dumbed down bag of rocks, locked inside a barrel like almost everyone else on the team. He has airtools that cover for him and his team that force Hale to think twice before stupidly running down every single person, holding the right mouse button, releasing it and harvesting kills. Pyro combats Hale's VERY infamous and far too rewarding Playstyle that turns him from a 20k Health Raidboss into a Market Gardening Soldier with 20000 health, and that playstyle is absolutely unfair to deal with for literally 7/9 classes in this game mode, the only unaffected classes being Soldier and Pyro thanks to viable item choices.

    Pyro's counter, even if you will shake your head and disagree, is persistance. Stop right mouse jumping into Sentrynests over and over again, expecting something to change. That's insanity. Adapt, watch where the Pyros are, and approach the Sentry without holding your right mouse to jump. You're enabling yourself to become a target for airblasting Pyros that will propell you backwards. You'll quickly notice (unless you're the Vagineer that should be removed from the Mode not just because he's outdated but also underpowered as heck) that Pyros are no longer a threat if you properly move around, dodge Market Garden Soldiers and take looks behind yourself once in a while for Spies. Pyros block your air route if they are talented and they are worthless on the ground. In mid air, raging a Pyro is absolutely no threat for the Firemaker, but on the ground he is absolutely vulnerable. If he protects an Engineer, walk up to the sentry and watch him walk towards you in an attempt to stop you. If he gets close enough, rage him. If you notice he DOESNT walk towards you, do not rage. Raging a Sentrygun on the ground is silly, it has meaningless knockback and will easily break without rage. Rather than that, walk up to it, FORCE the Pyro to move towards you unless he wants to lose the Sentrygun, and then rage him when he has no choice but to go in.

    This may sound complicated, but it's a simple mind game versus another player. A Pyro will attempt to save his team despite your effort, so you need to be smarter than them.

    Here is where I'm, as a Pyro player, throwing you a bone: Pyro CAN be annoying, yes, but so can be Hale. A reasonable change to the way VSH is played is to make sure Hales can no longer abuse right mouse jumps. It helps classes that suffer under this abuse such as Heavy and Engineer become more independent than "I hope a Pyro is around to make sure Hale does NOT do that.".

    If you actually remove Right mouse jumps entirely, you can take your time to ban, nerf, gut, remove Pyro as hard as you'd like, but not before that. Pyro is one of the only reasons the playing team has a valid chance to defeat a skilled Hale right now, and destroying him will only make sure that the already winning people can go back to their daily life of "Ahhh I'm having such an easy time winning every single game just by holding the right mouse button. Joy."

    There will be no fun anymore. Hales will have all the fun stomping defenseless people, while everyone else completely throws away Engineer on 18/20 maps and opt for Scout, Spy, Soldier and Demoman. It'll no longer be a mode about team work, it'll turn into a selfish "Which Demoknight can deal the most damage?" game mode, just like it has in 2012 when the Demoknight still had critical hits on his Grenade Launcher.

    Last but not least: The learning curve.

    When a player masters/knows/practices their class, they will understand how to use it. Good Heavies prevent Hale from jumping by using taunt crits, Good Scouts, stomp Hale for massive damage. Soldiers provide Battalions Backup to protect teammates, Pyros airblast Hale to prevent him from killing his less self-sustained teammates. Engineer can build in ridiculous places and provide ammo on maps with scarce ammo, Demoman can zone and hold the front line depending on his item set. Sniper will get into 10k damage range with enough practice, Medic will prevent Hale from taking down Engineers and Heavies while providing Health to the front line. Spy keeps Hale paranoid while going for high damage backstabs.

    That is the learning curve, the process to master your class. If a person knows how to play Pyro, do they REALLY deserve being gutted to the ground? Rather than that, shouldn't Hale learn from his loss and adapt so he can win the next time? Hale after all is supposed to have a learning curve as well. He isn't born perfect and undefeatable, otherwise the mode would be pointless.

    That's all, hope it helps.
     
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  17. Riven ✭

    Riven ✭ New Member

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    Steam:
    Have to add something:

    Pyro, after the recent nerf, is no longer a competent damage dealer. before, he was an Enabler/Damage dealer, but right now the flame particle nerf has destroyed a lot of his damage output, shoving him even more into the Support role.
     
  18. Le Captain Pootis

    Le Captain Pootis Trial Gameserver Admin
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    Steam:
    Just posting here again because I read somewhere Kevin was opposing pyro limitations.

    Yesterday we were playing this map, it was like a giant house in VSH, and there are 4-5 places with ammo and medpacks there. A pyro was the remaining player, and he were flare-jumping all over the map, landing on med and ammo packs, and when the hale came for him, he could just flare-jump to the next med and ammo packs. He were taking about 7 minutes to deal 3K damage, as the remaining player, which imo, is too long.

    The other thing is, a trend has emerged, which is 5-6 pyros every single round. It's overkill at this point. In the beginning of every round, about 3 pyros flare-jump towards the hale, and unnecessarily push him around for no apparent reason. And also, in the beginning it's impossible to rage anyone because there's so many pyros that are going to push you away. Eventually you'll get a few pyros and it'll get easier, but at this point it's ridiculous.

    Medium skilled pyros are so OP at this point, they're virtually impossible to kill without rage. The dude I was talking about at the top, only died after 7 minutes, because the hale had to rage him, cause he was lucky enough to get anywhere NEAR the pyro, because he was constantly flying about.

    Now, this whole pyro issue doesn't annoy me so much anymore because now when I'm hale, I really don't care if I use rage because I'm not gonna waste everyones time by being a try-hard. They still annoy the shit out of me, however I've learnt to deal with it. But I see a lot of people, when they become hale, complain about the pyros. "Fucking knockback", "fucking pyros", "useless pyros", all that, and it just goes to show that almost 75% of people who become hale, are really annoyed by pyros and their abilities.

    Pyros can: Push the hale really far away with 1 single airblast. Flare-jump into the air and push the hale away mid-air. Protect entire team with a few airblasts, and when there's 4, 5 or even 6 pyros, this becomes an obstacle that's way too big. Flare-jump all over the map (Big opens map basically means unlimited ammo & HP). Goomba stomp the hale with his flare gun. Flare-jump across the map if he's far away from the hale, and he sees that he's using rage. Has the ability to airblast 10 times without refilling. Has no class limits. Another thing is when you try to jump as hale, towards a pyro, he (If medium skilled) pushes you away before you can even land, rendering the pyro almost invincible.
    These are just some of the examples of what the pyro can accomplish in an open map.

    Almost every other class has had some kind of limitations, whether it's class limits or other forms of nerfing, I don't see why pyros are an exception with everything they can do.
     
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