Accepted Gagged and muted (1 Viewer)

[ekin]

SourceBans Ban URL: https://bans.panda-community.com/index.php?p=commslist&searchText=STEAM_0:1:57976780
Name: EKIN
Steam ID: STEAM_0:1:57976780
Date and Time of the Ban: Gag- 02-26-17 20:50 | Mute- 02-26-17 20:54
Reason about the Ban: Gag- Toxic attitude | Mute- Disrupting admin
Admin that Banned you: TBotV63
Why should you receive an unban for the ban/gag/mute: I got gagged for 24 hours because of my 'toxic attitude', but I haven't said anything toxic to anyone on the server. I was having fun with my friends: chatlogs here. Shortly after I got muted for 12 hours, after I asked the admin why I got gagged for 24 hours.

 

[IceStick]

Thou shan't question Panda authority. Extension deserved, initial gag most likely not.

 

[iceviet]

so what is this ? https://gameme.panda-community.com/player_histories/chat/1550157

 

[Zeprus]

so what is this ? https://gameme.panda-community.com/player_histories/chat/1550157

It is in no way related to the current gag and therefore not important.

 

[Wolfgang]

I wasn't there for the most of it but;

To the best of my knowledge, continously "crying" sarcastically in the voice chat after a gag (deserved or not) counts as a toxic attitude and/or admin disruption. You were there with 'the crew' (callum, sentinel) both of them previously gagged under weird circumstances. I strongly feel you guys were just pushing boundaries. Perhaps poking fun at them for the earlier treatment of the aforementioned people. There were many different ways you could've gone about the whole situation and I feel like you chose to be toxic. although obnoxious may be a better word.

Despite all that, I remain largely undecided since I wasn't there for the initial gag and most of what happened afterwards and I can't tell much from the chat logs.

 

[TBotV63]

Chatlog: https://gameme.panda-community.com/player_histories/chat/1175175

Throughout the entire day you and several other people (who have already shown interest in this appeal as I see) have been on the server almost constantly, making sarcastic and annoying comments and mocking others under various names with the clear intent of pissing others off. Also, for context, given your chatlog from the day before it seems rather unlikely that you'd make a 360 turn in attitude, doesn't it? Given your prior gags for insulting I believe that one day is a sensible time.

Then, after I told you to drop the subject and warned you that I'd mute you, you continued to wail about it so I muted you (as I'd said).

To the best of my knowledge, continously "crying" sarcastically in the voice chat after a gag (deserved or not) counts as a toxic attitude and/or admin disruption. You were there with 'the crew' (callum, sentinel) both of them previously gagged under weird circumstances. I strongly feel you guys were just pushing boundaries. Perhaps poking fun at them for the earlier treatment of the aforementioned people. There were many different ways you could've gone about the whole situation and I feel like you chose to be toxic. although obnoxious may be a better word.

As for Sentinel, he claimed he had nothing to do with it and there is no issue with him as far as I'm aware. @Callum, if you and your friends act like this on the servers, don't you think it somewhat invalidates any potential admin reports?

 

[Callum]

For the record I almost never even type in chat and some days talk on mic so I don't know but the extent of my toxicity has been "n1" when people die to slow rockets, which is clearly a joke and a few salty comments here and then, I'm not perfect but I don't think i'm toxic. Then today where i said nothing but laughs and !s.

Secondly act like what? check the chat logs, we literally did nothing but talk to eachother or say things like "haha close one!" we barely even spoke to other people the entire time unless they spoke to us first so i dont know what you mean by "act like this".

And lastly gagging someone for little to no reason then threatening to mute him when he wants to know how he was toxic is not how you handle a situation, i had voice disabled at the start but unmuted after i realised you weren't offering me the chat logs. You told him to drop it and he said "why would I drop it?" which is a fair question considering he believes he did nothing wrong and your response in the end was just muting him and not really dealing with the situation at hand. It was a form of censorship and dictatorship, those words sound dramatic but I can't think of another way to say it because as far as I saw, he wasn't toxic in chat, he didn't break any rules as far as I'm aware and then he wasn't allowed argue his case with you.

 

[TBotV63]

It was a form of censorship and dictatorship, those words sound dramatic but I can't think of another way to say it because as far as I saw, he wasn't toxic in chat, he didn't break any rules as far as I'm aware and then he wasn't allowed argue his case with you.

I must admit, that I caught onto your act with the fake names rather late. As for arguing his case with me, appeals are the procedure used to argue that. It makes no sense to argue a case like this in ingame chat. I have no idea how this relates to dictatorship or censorship.

 

[Callum]

Firstly, are you even going to address my first two points?

Secondly, so you're saying it's better to let the situation escalate to the forums immediately rather than trying to get it sorted on the server there and then? If you compare it to a legal dispute or something similar you don't bring it straight to court etc, you try to solve it internally among the involved parties and only go to court (forums in this case) as a last option to sort the dispute. That should be the same procedure here.

And thirdly I admit dictatorship and censorship are strong words but they still apply to this situation in that one person is using their position of power to silence someone lower than them with a differing opinion for no reason other than that difference of opinion.

 

[TBotV63]

For the record I almost never even type in chat and some days talk on mic so I don't know but the extent of my toxicity has been "n1" when people die to slow rockets, which is clearly a joke and a few salty comments here and then, I'm not perfect but I don't think i'm toxic. Then today where i said nothing but laughs and !s.

How is this a point that needs to be addressed? Acknowledged. This isn't your appeal by the way, and as far as I'm aware I didn't gag you. So I'm not entirely sure how this is related to the issue at hand.

Secondly act like what? check the chat logs, we literally did nothing but talk to eachother or say things like "haha close one!" we barely even spoke to other people the entire time unless they spoke to us first so i dont know what you mean by "act like this".

What I mean by "act like this" was the constant stream of (imo) quite clearly sarcastic comments.

Secondly, so you're saying it's better to let the situation escalate to the forums immediately rather than trying to get it sorted on the server there and then? If you compare it to a legal dispute or something similar you don't bring it straight to court etc, you try to solve it internally among the involved parties and only go to court (forums in this case) as a last option to sort the dispute. That should be the same procedure here.

I have to actually admin in the server, I don't have time to write paragraph upon paragraph in ingame chat.

And thirdly I admit dictatorship and censorship are strong words but they still apply to this situation in that one person is using their position of power to silence someone lower than them with a differing opinion for no reason other than that difference of opinion.

And what was his opinion here that I opposed? Because I'm not entirely sure.

 

[Callum]

How is this a point that needs to be addressed? Acknowledged. This isn't your appeal by the way, and as far as I'm aware I didn't gag you. So I'm not entirely sure how this is related to the issue at hand.

You named me and brought me into this as I was there and as far as I'm concerned I did the same thing as Ekin for the most part but wasn't gagged, not that I'm asking to be gagged now.

What I mean by "act like this" was the constant stream of (imo) quite clearly sarcastic comments.

The "stream of sarcastic comments" for the most part wasn't even directed at anyone else, we were literally talking amongst ourselves because I wasn't in discord talking to them in comms. I'm pretty sure the most common things he said was "close one!" and "haha!"

I have to actually admin in the server, I don't have time to write paragraph upon paragraph in ingame chat.

Well now is your chance to write us that paragraph explaining why you gagged him because as far as I'm concerned there still hasn't been a reason other than "sarcastic comments". Which weren't even aimed at you or anyone else (mostly) and that consisted of generally positive remarks.

And what was his opinion here that I opposed? Because I'm not entirely sure.

His opinion being that he didn't break any rules warranting a gag, that's the whole point of this.

 

[TBotV63]

His opinion being that he didn't break any rules warranting a gag, that's the whole point of this.

I didn't silence him because I disagreed with him, I silenced him because he decided to argue (again with a sarcastic undertone) after I told him to drop it. That is the very thing the forums are for.

Well now is your chance to write us that paragraph explaining why you gagged him because as far as I'm concerned there still hasn't been a reason other than "sarcastic comments". Which weren't even aimed at you or anyone else (mostly) and that consisted of generally positive remarks.

Why thank you so much for giving me this opportunity, I sure am greatful.

Just let me quote from the rules:

d) Chat spamming
Flooding the chat with the same message or with useless, unintelligible content that disrupt communication or are deemed otherwise irritating is forbidden. Additionally, refrain from typing in caps.

Given the sheer volume of said comments I believe it's valid. Also, just because you're only talking between eachother, that does not mean that it isn't visible to everyone and that it doesn't fall under the rules. If you want to do that between eachother, fine by me, but not in the public chat on the server. The entire thing was quite clearly started with the intent of being obnoxious.

That run-in with kostas didn't help this case either. While kostas was being offensive, the response didn't exactly fit with the oh-so-positive remainder of the chat.

I did the same thing as Ekin

... to a lesser extent. And again, even if it was supposedly the same, this thread is still there to discuss what Ekin did.

 

[Sentinel]

d) Chat spamming
Flooding the chat with the same message or with useless, unintelligible content that disrupt communication or are deemed otherwise irritating is forbidden. Additionally, refrain from typing in caps.

You mean, that being the epitome of Panda chat - Lennies, unfunny binds etc. If that isn't regarded as flood I honestly don't know what is, there were between 3 second to 15 second breaks between Ekin's chats. The "deemed irritating" statement was only a personal thing (only two people were irritated, you know who you are and you're both here) as nobody really said anything. The only !calls that occurred was Tonton's and someone else that was calling when me and Ekin were walling. Might I add, at this point we were on SpD's Space Tube and the sarcastic remarks didn't even start then.

That run-in with kostas didn't help this case either. While kostas was being offensive, the response didn't exactly fit with the oh-so-positive remainder of the chat.

Uh...

 

[TBotV63]

You mean, that being the epitome of Panda chat - Lennies, unfunny binds etc. If that isn't regarded as flood I honestly don't know what is

*the very epitome of what Pana chat is not supposed to be

there were between 3 second to 15 second breaks between Ekin's chats.

That is enough for it to be considered spam. Especially given the fact that they mostly lack content.

The "deemed irritating" statement was only a personal thing (only two people were irritated, you know who you are and you're both here) as nobody really said anything.

It still fits the "deemed irritating" scope. Also, those things are always subjective to an extent.

The only !calls that occurred was Tonton's and someone else that was calling when me and Ekin were walling. Might I add, at this point we were on SpD's Space Tube and the sarcastic remarks didn't even start then.

TonTon's call had nothing to do with this, no need in bringing it up.

 

[EvoWarrior5]

If that chatlog can't be considered spam, almost nothing can. Literally the only way it couldve been worse is if it was "GET GOOD GET LMAOBOX" "BEST FREE TF2 HACK" every other second.

I dunno about the arguing part, you guys fight that out. Players have the right to inquire why someone was gagged and briefly and politely argue with the admin if they disagree. If the admin has responded and the player is not satisfied, they are expected to take it to the forums. I don't know how (or how long for) the arguing part went so I'm no help there. (Just for clarification's sake; I don't think the community has a specified protocol that admins are required to give detailed explanations of their actions to players. Even just "take it to the forums if you disagree" would suffice as a response by current standards as far as I'm aware.)

 

[AkramTheReaperPanda]

It's sad how the attitude around here is usually "Give 0 fucks if you are morally right or not. Only the rules matter"

 

[TBotV63]

It's sad how the attitude around here is usually "Give 0 fucks if you are morally right or not. Only the rules matter"

Please elaborate how this is morally wrong then, as that is what your post seems to suggest.

 

[AkramTheReaperPanda]

Please elaborate how this is morally wrong then, as that is what your post seems to suggest.

It happened on many repports i saw recently. and when evo metioned the protocol thing about discussing the gag with the admin. that as long as there is no obligation to respond an admin can just gag/extend the gag and send the player to the forums. it's not this specific case, i dunno how long you two talked either or what you both said. but banning for inquiring?

 

[TBotV63]

but banning for inquiring?

No, banning for going on about it, at which point it was first of all hindering me from doing my job as an admin and secondly, the way in which it was done already fit the definition of Spam.

 

[AkramTheReaperPanda]

I don't want to deviate this topic from its purpose even more, so i'll be on shoutbox for anymore discussion. That being said, how does talking to you hinders your work? it annoyed you. it didn't hinder your work. your work is to listen to players, help them, make things better. As for it fits the definition of spam, like i said, only rules matter, right? do you think there was an easy scenario in which you can convince him not to spam and figure a solution with no further issues? Do you think that maybe he spammed because u refused to listen?